(urth) christ, already

Wed Dec 15 16:17:03 PST 2010

Strangely enough, I think that's actually a point of debate in the history of 
theology: namely, does the universe only need one redeemer? Does every planet 
need its own Christ? Would every iteration of a cyclical universe need its own 
Christ to be saved? Or was one enough to get the job done, as it were? Seems 
like I remember reading once that this argument has popped up a number of times 
in places FAR removed from science fiction. (I'm no theology expert, so I 
couldn't tell you where I read this.)

As for separating Christ from Jesus, though...for a Christian, that's splitting 
hairs, isn't it? Christ/"annointed one"/the "Messiah" isn't an abstraction. It 
had an actual, personal, historical occurrence in Jesus of Nazareth and that 
SPECIFIC instantiation matters. I mean, if Christ is the Word/Logos made flesh, 
then the flesh of Jesus isn't an accidental property. The whole point was that 
god became a specific, historical man, not just a man in general.

Again, I'm no theologian, so I've probably got all kinds of things wrong...and 
in the end, like I said about the Outsider, I'm not sure how much any of this 
really matters to Long Sun.

________________________________
From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Cc: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 6:06:37 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already

I pretty much agree with you but I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall.
Jesus of Nazareth delivered the sermon on the mount and died on the cross. 
Christians essentially title Jesus of Nazareth with the title Christ to denote 
that he is the Messiah.
Christ means Messiah (redeemer) ("Annointed one" comes after Messiah")
Every time I use Christ no one can ever seem to separate it from Jesus.
I have not EVER said the Outsider or Severianhas any connection with the man 
Jesus of Nazareth or his sermons or sacrifice.

SURELY, if the universe repeats itself, each universe will need a Christ / 
Messiah / Redeemer / Conciliator to help it from Outside creation, if it can be 
said that any of the creations have this.

~witz

On Dec 15, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

I get the point about the Outsider being "God" but not "Christ" in the sense 
that the Outsider didn't deliver the sermon on the mount or actually be the body 
that died on the cross, etc.
>
>But isn't there a bigger point here that the Outsider is the Outsider. "It" is 
>the "real" God outside of man-made mythology. We can assume that it's ultimately 
>the God of Christianity because of what we know of Wolfe, and, textually, 
>because of its close association with Kypris/love/etc. and because of what *we* 
>know those thematic relationships suggest to non-fictional theology outside of 
>the made-up world in the books.
>
>But, in the book, I always assumed that the real point of having the Outsider be 
>called very deliberately "the Outsider" was that its actual nature remains 
>largely unknown and  mysterious, even to Silk after his vision. The books stress 
>how difficult gnosis can be to come to terms with, even after direct revelation. 
>Silk continually misunderstands the nature of the Outsider throughout the books, 
>still trying to understand it through the "dark glass" of Pas' cobbled-together 
>mythology at times, even as he learns how false that mythology actually is. At 
>no point is Silk given a Bible in which he can read the gospels, etc. in any way 
>that makes the identification of the Outsider as God/Holy Spirit/Christ really 
>meaningful within the world of the book.
>
>In Long Sun, the Outsider is the real God, sure, but none of the characters ever 
>really understands what that means in the same way that Wolfe might believe he 
>understands it. That truth remains difficult and distant even after revelation 
>seems to be much the point of the books.
>
>So I'll stick with calling it the Outsider.
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 5:38:34 PM
>Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>
>
>In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Christ and God are 
>explicit, though part of the Holy Trinity. God is within Christ, and Christ 
>symbolizes God. And God created the symbol.
>
>
>Something about symbols inventing us echoes in my mind.
>
>
>:)
>
>...ryan
>
>On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:48 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>Hey, you're the one who said Outsider=Christ.
>>
>>
>>And no, Christians do not "use Christ interchangeably with God." Even I know 
>>that.
>>
>>--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>>>Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>>>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:35 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>Are you forgetting the tripartite nature of Christ?
>>>The Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost.  Christ is an aspect of God and is used 
>>>by Christians interchangeably with God.
>>>
>>>On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>I'd say Outsider=God was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>>>>
>>>>--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>>>>>Subject: Re:  (urth) christ, already
>>>>>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>>Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>>>>I don't know about Dionysus. I need to read those again, but I thought that 
>>>>>Outsider=Christ was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>
>>>
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