(urth) christ, already

[Son of Witz]

I pretty much agree with you but I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall.
Jesus of Nazareth delivered the sermon on the mount and died on the cross. Christians essentially title Jesus of Nazareth with the title Christ to denote that he is the Messiah.
Christ means Messiah (redeemer) ("Annointed one" comes after Messiah")
Every time I use Christ no one can ever seem to separate it from Jesus.
I have not EVER said the Outsider or Severianhas any connection with the man Jesus of Nazareth or his sermons or sacrifice.

SURELY, if the universe repeats itself, each universe will need a Christ / Messiah / Redeemer / Conciliator to help it from Outside creation, if it can be said that any of the creations have this.

~witz

On Dec 15, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I get the point about the Outsider being "God" but not "Christ" in the sense that the Outsider didn't deliver the sermon on the mount or actually be the body that died on the cross, etc.
> 
> But isn't there a bigger point here that the Outsider is the Outsider. "It" is the "real" God outside of man-made mythology. We can assume that it's ultimately the God of Christianity because of what we know of Wolfe, and, textually, because of its close association with Kypris/love/etc. and because of what *we* know those thematic relationships suggest to non-fictional theology outside of the made-up world in the books.
> 
> But, in the book, I always assumed that the real point of having the Outsider be called very deliberately "the Outsider" was that its actual nature remains largely unknown and mysterious, even to Silk after his vision. The books stress how difficult gnosis can be to come to terms with, even after direct revelation. Silk continually misunderstands the nature of the Outsider throughout the books, still trying to understand it through the "dark glass" of Pas' cobbled-together mythology at times, even as he learns how false that mythology actually is. At no point is Silk given a Bible in which he can read the gospels, etc. in any way that makes the identification of the Outsider as God/Holy Spirit/Christ really meaningful within the world of the book.
> 
> In Long Sun, the Outsider is the real God, sure, but none of the characters ever really understands what that means in the same way that Wolfe might believe he understands it. That truth remains difficult and distant even after revelation seems to be much the point of the books.
> 
> So I'll stick with calling it the Outsider.
> 
> 
> From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 5:38:34 PM
> Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
> 
> In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Christ and God are explicit, though part of the Holy Trinity. God is within Christ, and Christ symbolizes God. And God created the symbol.
> 
> Something about symbols inventing us echoes in my mind.
> 
> :)
> 
> ...ryan
> 
> On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:48 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hey, you're the one who said Outsider=Christ.
>> 
>> And no, Christians do not "use Christ interchangeably with God." Even I know that.
>> 
>> --- On Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>> 
>> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:35 PM
>> 
>> Are you forgetting the tripartite nature of Christ?
>> The Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost.  Christ is an aspect of God and is used by Christians interchangeably with God.
>> 
>> On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd say Outsider=God was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>>> 
>>> --- On Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>>> Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>> I don't know about Dionysus. I need to read those again, but I thought that Outsider=Christ was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>> 
>> 
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