(urth) (no subject)

[Son of Witz]

No, I am not saying that BotNS is not fiction. Not at all.
I'm saying that I think Wolfe mashed up a lot of his beliefs which might seem to a simpler mind to be incompatible, and he inserted a Christ-like redeemer into it.  I'm saying that the metaphors probably DO go far to explain Wolfe's feelings about the universe though, but it is all done within a fictional metaphor.  I don't think he is doing it lightly, or simply mashing ideas for the heck of it though.

On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

> So, Witz, are you saying that, fundamentally, you don't think that BotNS is 
> fiction? I mean, sure the story's made up, but are you saying that you find 
> BotNS to actually be a working-out of an actual theory-of-the-world/cosmos?
> 
> I ask because that seems to be a point that comes up among fans of Wolfe a lot 
> of times. (Hi, there, brunians, if you're still listening.) It seems like 
> there's definitely a tendency among some Wolfe readers to see him working out a 
> *real* cosmology at some level rather than just writing speculative fiction. 
> (Maybe David's PKD/Valis reference was prescient on this point, speaking of a 
> dude who believed his own sci-f...uh...SF. heh) It's just very different from 
> how I read him: writing speculative fictions that play with different, even 
> contradictory ideas, rather than developing a consistent cosmology.
> 
> I would be curious if you could find that interview quote. I recall a number of 
> times where Wolfe has mentioned in interviews that the world is stranger than we 
> might think, but I haven't actually seen a place where he crosses the line of 
> saying "this aspect of 'genre' writing/thinking is just plain realism." It 
> usually seems to me that he's much more cagey about such issues in a way that 
> leaves possibilities open rather than explicitly stating his belief in a set of 
> particular ideas. (Even in interviews where he talks about his religion, he'll 
> say things like "I'm Catholic, but that may not mean what you think it means.")
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 5:44:19 PM
> Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> Why create a fictional universe if it is fundamentally the same as our own?
> Well, are you sure that our universe is cyclically recreated in the same pattern 
> again and again?
> Are you sure that we shaped a race of beings that in turn shapes us?
> I'm not sure, but I think it's probably true.
> 
> Anyway, I don't have the quote, but somewhere Wolfe said something to the idea 
> that he wrote New Sun to explore the ramifications of his beliefs.
> Personally, I think he attempted to reconcile his convert-Catholic belief in 
> Christ with his beliefs in other worlds, ideas about cyclicality of reality and 
> temporal causality, belief in powers higher than humanity, his revolt against 
> the modern world, and perhaps a belief that extra terrestrials helped shape 
> humanity, along with a hope that our fallen creation can be saved, even if it 
> means another flood to wipe out corrupt humanity.  Just guessing, but that seems 
> very much like what he's given us.
> ~Witz
> 
> On Dec 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, exactly. I meant "sci-fi," with the scare quotes.
>> 
>> Do you prefer "sf"?
>> 
>> The question is the same. Why create a "cyclical iterations of the same 
>> creation that keeps playing out in more or less the same pattern" fictional 
>> universe if it's fundamentally the same as ours?
>> 
>> On 12/15/2010 4:50 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:46 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net 
>>> <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>   I mean "similar," i.e., identical except for key differences. That
>>>   is, in the usual sci-fi sense that most people understand.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> H'mmm. Well, I would have said that the usual science-fictional sense of 
>>> "parallel universes" includes the idea that they are in some sense moving along 
>>> in time next to ours. The "mirror universe" in Star Trek is a classic example.
>>> 
>>> Also, please refrain (note that I am asking politely) from using the term 
>>> "sci-fi." Some find it very offensive.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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