(urth) christ, already

[Son of Witz]

On Dec 15, 2010, at 2:35 PM, Matthew Weber <palaeologos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Christ is indeed "Very God of Very God," but Christ didn't alight upon himself in the form of a dove at his baptism, nor did he speak by ventriloquism "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."  The Persons of the Trinity aren't pseudopods of God-stuff extended at need to fulfill functions; they are separate persons who are all of the same substance (substantia, ousia).  The Son was incarnate as Jesus; neither the Father nor the Holy Ghost were ever incarnate.  Christ is God; the Father is God; the Holy Ghost is God.  But the Father is not Christ, nor is Christ the Holy Ghost, nor is the Holy Ghost the Father.
> 

Well, I didn't say Christ was the Father. 
Again, I said that this is true: Outsider=Christ=God (not The Father)
I don't think we are in disagreement.



> We can say that the Outsider is the God we find in Christianity, but to say that he is Christ makes assumptions about the correspondence of Christianity to Briah that we don't have data to support.  An argument might be made that the Conciliator is Christ, although again the details of Urthian religion are a bit too sketchy to make that very convincing.  On the other hand, Christ's mission was certainly conciliatory; to repair, by means of his sacrifice, the broken relationship between God and Man.

Again, I think that this is only a problem if you feel that there is no Christ without the Man Jesus. (sorry, I don't know Dark Tower cosmology, but I read that name in one of the comics)
Pope Benedict XVI or whatever he's called recently, (within the last few years) afirrmed that "From the beginning, Christianity has understood itself as the religion of the Logos" 
But "Logos" is a greek term that originally meant "ratio" more than "word". The Logos was originally understood as a mediator reconciling man and god, or so some Thologians have written. In this sense, I see Severian as embodying the Logos. Now I understand Logos to be a healing ASPECT of God. Thus I equate the outsider as a non-incarnate Logos. I think I confuse people in that I often use Christ as a name for the non-incarnate Logos and only use Jesus to refer to the possibly incarnate Logos.



> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
> Yes, but the Trinity is a unity, and thus makes my statement true, no? We can equally say that the Outsider = Christ = God.  Am I wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Matthew Weber <palaeologos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Christ is used exclusively in Christianity to refer to the second Person of the Trinity.  Nobody refers to the Father or the Holy Ghost as Christ.
>> 
>> Here's a handy photographic mnemonic : http://www.flickr.com/photos/aozuas/2404074070/
>> 
>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>> Are you forgetting the tripartite nature of Christ?
>> The Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost.  Christ is an aspect of God and is used by Christians interchangeably with God.
>> 
>> On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd say Outsider=God was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>>> 
>>> --- On Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>>> Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>> I don't know about Dionysus. I need to read those again, but I thought that Outsider=Christ was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>> 
>> 
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>> -- 
>> Matt +
>> 
>> The seaman's story is of tempest, the plowman's of his team of bulls; the soldier tells his wounds, the shepherd his tale of sheep.
>>     Sextus Propertius (54 B.C.-A.D. 2), Elegies, II, i, 43
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> -- 
> Matt +
> 
> The seaman's story is of tempest, the plowman's of his team of bulls; the soldier tells his wounds, the shepherd his tale of sheep.
>     Sextus Propertius (54 B.C.-A.D. 2), Elegies, II, i, 43
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