(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31

Tue May 19 15:20:58 PDT 2009

Actually, the way you tell that it's getting close to shoot-the-bastards
time is that *everyone*, including the cops, is talking about it getting
close to shoot-the-bastards time, on one side of the argument or another,
depending on the loyalties of the region that you are in. Anyone disagrees
they keep quiet. That's how it was before the American Revolution and that
is how it was before the War Between The States.

.

> Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!
>
> Tear down the SUVs!  tear down the McDonalds!  Unite as Brothers! ;)
> Burn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno!   Instatiate the
> Group of Seventeen for all time!
>
>
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM,  <urth-request at lists.urth.net> wrote:
>> Send Urth mailing list submissions to
>>        urth at lists.urth.net
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>        http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>        urth-request at lists.urth.net
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>        urth-owner at lists.urth.net
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Urth digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)
>>   2. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)
>>   3. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)
>>   4. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)
>>   5. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>>   6. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>>   7. Re:  Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)
>>   8. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500
>> From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Message-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>>
>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and
>>> name them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic
>>> ways to express plain reality.
>>
>> Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think
>> "extortion" is any closer to "plain reality" than "dues."
>>
>> I am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true.  But then I believe
>> we probably, at heart, disagree on "plain reality."
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)
>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Message-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> You're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane? They taught you about
>> him in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are just
>> pretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.
>>
>> Go on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and have
>> no real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly
>> falling
>> into one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for fun,
>> not blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless you
>> tie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.
>>
>>
>>
>> ...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not
>> warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
>> resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
>> to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
>> in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
>> time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
>> It is its natural manure.
>>
>> -- Thomas Jefferson
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the
>>> pleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration
>>> with graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-
>>> seated state for carrying out the will of society?
>>>
>>> At some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and
>>> shared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that
>>> together a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.
>>>
>>> The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven
>>> market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of
>>> cooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As
>>> wealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer
>>> taking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market
>>> where supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the
>>> consumer.
>>>
>>> Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave
>>> relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling
>>> taxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of
>>> profit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?
>>>
>>> Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a
>>> civil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by
>>> right and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by
>>> economic manipulation.
>>>
>>> Tell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the civil
>>> government to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.
>>>>
>>>> Taxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for
>>>> things that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the
>>>> military and things related to the military, infrastructure and
>>>> certain
>>>> kinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be
>>>> explicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the
>>>> things-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time
>>>> it is
>>>> necessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite
>>>> there yet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us
>>>>>> arguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a
>>>>>> Hobbesian
>>>>>> all-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is
>>>>> theft to the position that some governments are legitimate without
>>>>> giving up on the first one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Urth Mailing List
>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)
>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Message-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.
>>
>> -- PKD (I think).
>>
>> .
>>
>>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and
>>>> name them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic
>>>> ways to express plain reality.
>>>
>>> Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think
>>> "extortion" is any closer to "plain reality" than "dues."
>>>
>>> I am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true.  But then I believe
>>> we probably, at heart, disagree on "plain reality."
>>>
>>> Adam
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Urth Mailing List
>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500
>> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Message-ID: <BD4FACD5AAA943568DAC238C1E3F3911 at eMachinePC>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>        reply-type=response
>>
>> Adam, in "The Devil in a Forest", Wolfe presents the issue moral terms.
>> If
>> I'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying
>> less
>> for that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than just
>> going
>> to his door and demanding the money?
>> Okay. Here are your three options:
>>
>>>Adam sez:
>>>Of course, "fund it to the same degree," and "robbing from the rich to
>>>give to the poor," each themselves admit multiple interpretations.
>>>One way of "funding it to the same degree" would be to demand a flat
>>>amount from each citizen.
>>
>> This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too much
>> fairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if
>> the
>> poor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu.
>>
>>>One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,
>>>regardless of income.  This is usually what Libertarians claim to  like.
>>>However, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important)  observation
>>>that the marginal value of money decreases the more of it  you have.
>>
>> Marginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn
>> it.
>> You're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who
>> created it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the
>> guy
>> making $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores the
>> risks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to
>> create
>> that wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more
>> BENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy. Some
>> would say the differences therefore balance out so that both should pay
>> the
>> same rate.
>>
>> The real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It has
>> to
>> do with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority of
>> the
>> voting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger number
>> and
>> have a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for 95%
>> of
>> government services if they are seen as fee-for-service.  You probably
>> wouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased taxes
>> appealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any of
>> them?).
>>
>>>Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same amount
>>>  of
>>>inconvenience at all levels of income.  This is approximately what
>>>progressive income taxes attempt to do.
>>
>> How does a progressive tax provide "the same amount  of inconvenience at
>> all
>> levels of income"? Or do you mean "we'll tax you more if you have more
>> and
>> we'll do the same to other guy who has more too"? What if we taxed every
>> one
>> making $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally
>> logical?
>> But we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is
>> democracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting blocks
>> (home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting
>> others
>> (cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living).
>>
>>> "Robbing from the rich to give to the poor," is simply the same
>>>  argument
>>> stood on its head, of course.  Does taxation go from  "legitimate" to
>>> "robbery" at a value derived from the absolute dollar  value of the
>>> tax,
>>> from a percentage of income across all income  ranges, or to a degree
>>> of
>>> inconvenience across all income ranges?
>>
>> How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together to
>> fund
>> a new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or they
>> could all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could vote
>> that Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need
>> the
>> well---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can "afford it".
>> How
>> is that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have for
>> supper?
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400
>> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> Message-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Yeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
>>> > Mao was a perceptive guy about some
>>> > things. Power and how to use it, for
>>> > instance. Decent poet also, I'm told.
>>> >
>>> > Not a very nice man, but pretty smart.
>>> >
>>> > If three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller
>>> > agree about
>>> > something, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > .
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>> > > If Mao said it, it must be true.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > ------------------------------
>>
>>
>> ---
>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
>> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400
>> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> Message-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Of course you have.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Message-ID: <4290.67.142.130.18.1242769467.squirrel at brunians.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>
>>> > Somalia's economy is not "based on" piracy. It was based on fishing
>>> and
>>> > herding before global shipping killed all the fish.
>>>
>>
>> The fishing went away because Somalia, lacking a government, lacks a
>> Coast
>> Gaurd (see my post about necessary things which may be paid for by
>> taxation) and therefore every industrial fishing boat in the world went
>> there to glom on their fish.
>>
>> I think that bits of herding still go on.
>>
>> Somalia has been a pit for centuries. How did the Italians do running
>> it?
>> I've been in favor of giving large chunks of Africa back to the colonial
>> powers for some time now.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
>> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:08:44 PM
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:10:38 -0400
>> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30
>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> Message-ID: <4A132E5E.9060401 at verizon.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Thank you for this.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500
>> From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Message-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii;       format=flowed;
>>  delsp=yes
>>
>> ...
>> The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven
>> market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of
>> cooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As
>> wealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer
>> taking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market
>> where supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the
>> consumer.
>>
>> Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave
>> relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling
>> taxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of
>> profit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?
>>
>> Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a
>> civil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by
>> right and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by
>> economic manipulation.
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
>> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:10:42 PM
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:11:51 -0400
>> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> Message-ID: <4A132EA7.2030908 at verizon.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> I always try to keep that in mind when I read your posts.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:51:36 -0400 (EDT)
>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Message-ID: <10065.67.142.130.18.1242769896.squirrel at brunians.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>
>>> > By the way, who is Josh Geller?  (When I ask it that way,
>>> > the initials are a little disturbing.)
>>>
>>
>> Late twentieth - early twenty-first century aphorist.
>>
>> "Never postulate conspiracy when stupidity will explain the known
>> facts."
>>
>> -- Geller's Second Law
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
>> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:11:52 PM
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>
>> End of Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31
>> ************************************
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>