(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe

John Watkins john.watkins04 at gmail.com
Tue Mar 24 14:00:38 PDT 2009


On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Thomas Bitterman <tom at bitterman.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Enamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for
>>>
>>  But your original statement that "In Wolfe people apparently have sex to
>> show what bad people they are, and suffer for it later" is simply not based
>> on...well, anything that I can see..
>
>
> Severian/Jolenta - Sev as date-rapist
> Silk/Hyacinth - Silk loves unworthy woman, kills self over it
> Baldanders/little boy - homosexual child molestation
> Severian/Dorcas - it's his grandmother!
> Able/Dsiri - romantic love points in the wrong direction, and he is less
> for having it
> There are Doors - have sex and die
> Latro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship
> Horn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!
>
> There may be a pattern here.
>


That's not how I read Silk/Hyacinth, Severian/Dorcas, Able/Dsiri or There
Are Doors (although to be honest I have no clue what was going on in that
one.  Silk makes a Christlike action chasing after Hyacinth instead of going
to the lander, and Able's relationship with Dsiri is redeemed and
transfigured by his gift of blood.  The idea of a male priestly or godly
figure sacrificing himself for a less worthy female figure may be misogynist
in the sense that Wolfe is repeatedly chosing it to symbolize the
relationship between Christ and humanity when other symbols are available,
but it's hard to say that it's an attack on sexual love--it's actual a
recognition of a not-especially-controversial traditional understanding of
erotic love as a prefiguration or "gateway drug" for the love of the
divine.

And yes, I certainly think that Severian is a better man for his love for
Dorcas, and Able is transparently a better man for his love for Dsiri (even
if a love for the Most High God would have made him a better man still.)
Silk wound up shattered by his relationship with Hyacinth, of course, but
again, the Good Sheperd pursuing the wayward sheep rather than going with
his flock is not foolish or in error--he's clearly doing the right thing by
Wolfe's lights.


>
>
>
>> You are essentially ascribing to Wolfe the stated opinions of Incus.
>
>
> St. Paul.  And I'm not ascribing them to Wolfe, just describing what I see
> in his work.
>
>
>> That's just nonsense. I started to list all the instances of Wolfe
>> characters who are having sex with each other but it started to get silly.
>
>
> Wolfe portrays characters that have sex.  That sex is not always
> destructive.  Major characters in Wolfe novels, when they have "on air" sex,
> have sex that is destructive and degrading, and the relationships it occurs
> in is one of exploitation.  Said another way, Wolfe never seems to portray a
> healthy, sexual relationship, one in which his characters grow or benefit
> from each other.  Not untroubled, not happy-ever-after.  Just healthy.
>
>
>> Some people in Wolfe stories have sex and it ends badly, but not because
>> of the sex unless it was rape (and not always then). Certainly, no one's
>> sexual relationship in BSG ended well except for Baltar and Six's.
>
>
> In the end everyone is dead.  But for other good relationships:
> Adama/Roslin
> Athena/Helo
> Saul/Ellen Tigh - troubled, but ultimately happy, an interesting contrast
> to Silk/Hyacinth
>
> There were some destructive ("bad") relationships, too.  That happens.
> Wolfe knows that.  He just seems uninterested in portraying any good ones.
>
>
>> If I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be "sex invariability
>> causes people to act treacherously or cruelly."
>
>
> You've confused Wolfe and BSG.
>
>
>> We like what we like. I wouldn't spend 2 minutes watching "Grey's Anatomy"
>> or similar dramas regardless of how interesting (to some) or realistic the
>> relationships are. Not my cup 'o tea. That's what the flashbacks in the
>> finale reminded me of. They certainly didn't move forward or explain
>> anything in the current narrative.
>
>
> We agree - soap operas don't interest me, either.
>
>
>>
>> [regarding the sexual scenes in BSG finale]
>>> This reply is already too long, but don't forget Baltar.
>>>
>>
>> Did Baltar even have sex in the final episode? If not (and I'm thinking
>> not) it a first.  Certainly, Baltar and Six's relationship was hardly less
>> realistic than Wolfe's and, in general, its purpose was titilation.
>>
>
> Baltar starts out as very much as if Wolfe had written him.  His
> relationships are based solely on the sex that his money and fame can get
> him.  In the end he grows a lot through his relationship(s).  He is a better
> man for them.  Which Wolfean protagonist can say the same?  Sev?  Silk?
> Latro?
>
>
>>  J.
>>
>
> Enamel
>
>
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