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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Thomas Bitterman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tom@bitterman.net">tom@bitterman.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div class="im">On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crushtv@gmail.com" target="_blank">crushtv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Enamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">But your original statement that "In Wolfe people apparently have sex to show what bad people they are, and suffer for it later" is simply not based on...well, anything that I can see.. </blockquote>
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<div><br>Severian/Jolenta - Sev as date-rapist<br>Silk/Hyacinth - Silk loves unworthy woman, kills self over it<br>Baldanders/little boy - homosexual child molestation<br>Severian/Dorcas - it's his grandmother!<br>Able/Dsiri - romantic love points in the wrong direction, and he is less for having it<br>
There are Doors - have sex and die<br>Latro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship<br>Horn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!<br><br>There may be a pattern here.</div></div></blockquote>
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<div>That's not how I read Silk/Hyacinth, Severian/Dorcas, Able/Dsiri or There Are Doors (although to be honest I have no clue what was going on in that one. Silk makes a Christlike action chasing after Hyacinth instead of going to the lander, and Able's relationship with Dsiri is redeemed and transfigured by his gift of blood. The idea of a male priestly or godly figure sacrificing himself for a less worthy female figure may be misogynist in the sense that Wolfe is repeatedly chosing it to symbolize the relationship between Christ and humanity when other symbols are available, but it's hard to say that it's an attack on sexual love--it's actual a recognition of a not-especially-controversial traditional understanding of erotic love as a prefiguration or "gateway drug" for the love of the divine. </div>
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<div>And yes, I certainly think that Severian is a better man for his love for Dorcas, and Able is transparently a better man for his love for Dsiri (even if a love for the Most High God would have made him a better man still.) Silk wound up shattered by his relationship with Hyacinth, of course, but again, the Good Sheperd pursuing the wayward sheep rather than going with his flock is not foolish or in error--he's clearly doing the right thing by Wolfe's lights.</div>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">You are essentially ascribing to Wolfe the stated opinions of Incus. </blockquote></div>
<div><br>St. Paul. And I'm not ascribing them to Wolfe, just describing what I see in his work.<br> </div>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">That's just nonsense. I started to list all the instances of Wolfe characters who are having sex with each other but it started to get silly. </blockquote>
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<div><br>Wolfe portrays characters that have sex. That sex is not always destructive. Major characters in Wolfe novels, when they have "on air" sex, have sex that is destructive and degrading, and the relationships it occurs in is one of exploitation. Said another way, Wolfe never seems to portray a healthy, sexual relationship, one in which his characters grow or benefit from each other. Not untroubled, not happy-ever-after. Just healthy.<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Some people in Wolfe stories have sex and it ends badly, but not because of the sex unless it was rape (and not always then). Certainly, no one's sexual relationship in BSG ended well except for Baltar and Six's.</blockquote>
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<div><br>In the end everyone is dead. But for other good relationships:<br>Adama/Roslin<br>Athena/Helo<br>Saul/Ellen Tigh - troubled, but ultimately happy, an interesting contrast to Silk/Hyacinth<br><br>There were some destructive ("bad") relationships, too. That happens. Wolfe knows that. He just seems uninterested in portraying any good ones.<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">If I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be "sex invariability causes people to act treacherously or cruelly."</blockquote>
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<div><br>You've confused Wolfe and BSG.<br> </div>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">We like what we like. I wouldn't spend 2 minutes watching "Grey's Anatomy" or similar dramas regardless of how interesting (to some) or realistic the relationships are. Not my cup 'o tea. That's what the flashbacks in the finale reminded me of. They certainly didn't move forward or explain anything in the current narrative.</blockquote>
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<div><br>We agree - soap operas don't interest me, either.<br> </div>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">[regarding the sexual scenes in BSG finale]
<div><br>This reply is already too long, but don't forget Baltar.<br></div></blockquote><br>Did Baltar even have sex in the final episode? If not (and I'm thinking not) it a first. Certainly, Baltar and Six's relationship was hardly less realistic than Wolfe's and, in general, its purpose was titilation.<br>
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<div><br>Baltar starts out as very much as if Wolfe had written him. His relationships are based solely on the sex that his money and fame can get him. In the end he grows a lot through his relationship(s). He is a better man for them. Which Wolfean protagonist can say the same? Sev? Silk? Latro?<br>
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<div>Enamel<br><br></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net/" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br>
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