(urth) Quasi Christ?

Son of Witz sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
Sat Feb 7 13:39:09 PST 2009

Quasi-Christ works right?
can we agree on that?
you guys have convinced me that, ontologically speaking, Severian  
ain't Christ.
but: "A god's supposed to pull on a man just like a tunic – that's  
what they say."
so i'll settle for QuasiChrist.


On Feb 7, 2009, at 7:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> Thanks, Roy!
> Comments:
> ---Placing the *unique* Christ, or a comparison with him, in a  
> context of exactly those cyclic sun-god myths whence he sprang but  
> against which he is distinguished by his very uniqueness, creates a  
> tension that I don't think can be easily dismissed. Wolfe is a  
> mythmaker. He creates this tension in almost everything he writes,  
> when he incorporates mythologies and philosophies (Plato seems to be  
> in Severian's brown book, I notice). All these other myths seem to  
> operate on a mechanical level (Yesod is the apotheosis of this), and  
> often everything *is* repeated in some way. Note that even the  
> mechanical repetition of entire universes is implied, though not  
> proven. Your quote demonstrates that Severian, even at his highest,  
> lives and operates on this fantastic but mundane level. At least in  
> his understanding.
> ---Likewise, the sky people seem to have no correspondence in the  
> Christian mythos. They are more like pagan sky gods.
> ---I forget the name of the story, but others will recall it. Wolfe  
> wrote a story of a miraculous and overtly christlike birth on  
> another world, to another species. This introduces precisely the  
> repetition that the Christian mythos rejects, because the story  
> leaves you with the strong impression that this creature's life will  
> more or less repeat in detail that of the Christ, but differently,  
> of course.
> As a story, this is a "figure," but within the universe of the  
> story, it is a plain repetition of That Which Shall Not Be Repeated.  
> So it violates the Trinity (which is now possibly an Infinity) and  
> no doubt all sorts of other things. It seems to say that the Christ  
> myth is just another myth---or does it say that such myths are  
> fragments of the "true myth"? Discuss, ad infinitum. There's no  
> final answer.
> To clarify---because I think I continue to be misunderstood on this  
> point---I make no argument one way or the other. I point out the  
> tension and argue that it is elemental to Wolfe's writing. That's  
> why he keeps writing about it.
> ------------------------------
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:35:43 -0600
> From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Indescribable Christ?
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <003e01c988b3$a4e89800$35d24a0c at rclackey>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
> "Son of Witz" wrote:
>>>> >>> I completely agree.  I've understood it as GOD, the Godhead, is
> indescribable, but that inaccessibility is the main reason for Jesus  
> to be.
> To give us a path.  This is where the Logos comes in as that which
> reconciles God and Man. What's Jesus say about finding the Father only
> through me, or such. The Logos is the bridge. And we've been  
> comparing texts
> and exegesis about to characters that may or may not be incarnations  
> of the
> Logos.<<<
> --------------------------
> This subject is tiresome and has been done to death over the years,  
> and
> leads nowhere. People are talking past each other, as ever. I should  
> stay
> out of it. But I will make an appeal to the text.
> At issue here is whether or not Severian is in any meaningful sense a
> manifestation of the Christ, rather than someone who merely has  
> Christ-like,
> or Christic (as I believe someone here once termed it) qualities. The
> difference is unimportant to some, but to Christians (which I am  
> not) it is
> paramount.
> In the Christian mythos, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus  
> was, and
> ever will be, a *unique* event. As such, it can never be replicated-- 
> to do
> so would cheapen the magnitude of the supreme sacrifice. This  
> distinguishes
> Jesus from the many cyclical dying-and-resurrecting gods we are  
> familiar
> with.
> While it is true that there are correspondences between the lives of  
> Jesus
> and Severian, it is equally true that Severian manifests the  
> qualities of
> a -- well, duh! -- generic sun god, but that doesn't make him  
> Mithra, or any
> of the others.
> As for Severian the Conciliator being the same as Jesus, the  
> "bridge" that
> reconciles Man and God, he is *not*. He is a conciliator between Man  
> and the
> Hierogrammates, as the text makes clear.
> Shortly after his being returned to Urth in Typhon's era, the  
> villagers
> complained to Severian about the cold weather (occasioned by the sun's
> recent decline) that had ruined their crops in recent years, saying  
> "The sky
> people are angry with us." He explained:
> _________________
> "The sky people-the Hierodules and Hierarchs-do not hate us. It is  
> only that
> they are remote from us, and they fear us because of things we did  
> before,
> long ago when our race was young. I have gone to them." I watched the
> villagers' expressionless faces, wondering whether any of them would  
> believe
> me. "I have effected a conciliation-brought them nearer us and us  
> nearer
> them, I think. They've sent me back." (URTH, chap. XXIX, p.-204)
> __________________
> It can be argued -- and it has been -- whether or not the  
> Hierogrammates
> were acting on orders from On High, or even that they only  
> *believed* they
> were doing God's will, willingly or unwillingly, but the textual  
> fact of the
> matter is that Severian, the Conciliator, was a bridge between Man  
> and the
> Hierogrammates, not Man and God.
> -Roy
> ------------------------------
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