(urth) Indescribable Christ?
Son of Witz
sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
Fri Feb 6 16:46:30 PST 2009
Roy, I wasn't trying to argue Severian as Christ again.
you mention the nature of the Conciliator according to the text. here's one you may have forgotten:
from Chap XXI of Sword:
""Then his task was to forge a peace between humanity and the Increate, and he was called the Conciliator. He left behind a famous relic, a gem called the Claw.""
That explanation comes long before any of the UotNS Hierogrammate explanations, so it sort of sticks in my brain.
and, Matthew Weber wrote:
Jack, you speak of theology as though you think it and the "message" of Christianity (whatever that is supposed to mean; for the Apostles it was the empty tomb) are mutually exclusive. Furthermore, your statement appears to have as its primary object your assertion of superiority over those who engage in "hair-splitting theological arguments".
Christology as a focus of controversy has cooled a great deal since the 5th century, but most Christian bodies consider it an essential part of the faith; the catechisms of the largest Christian churches all address it. Clearly, quite a few people consider it important.
Simple arithmetic suffices for most of my mathematical needs. I find complex geometry obscure, but that's not justification for me to conclude that it's useless. Math, like religion, is bigger than my experience and my special feelings.
To which I must reply, "Well said".
~have a nice weekend y'all.
>From: Roy C. Lackey [mailto:rclackey at stic.net]
>Sent: Friday, February 6, 2009 03:35 PM
>To: 'The Urth Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: (urth) Indescribable Christ?
>"Son of Witz" wrote:
>>>> I completely agree. I've understood it as GOD, the Godhead, is
>indescribable, but that inaccessibility is the main reason for Jesus to be.
>To give us a path. This is where the Logos comes in as that which
>reconciles God and Man. What's Jesus say about finding the Father only
>through me, or such. The Logos is the bridge. And we've been comparing texts
>and exegesis about to characters that may or may not be incarnations of the
>This subject is tiresome and has been done to death over the years, and
>leads nowhere. People are talking past each other, as ever. I should stay
>out of it. But I will make an appeal to the text.
>At issue here is whether or not Severian is in any meaningful sense a
>manifestation of the Christ, rather than someone who merely has Christ-like,
>or Christic (as I believe someone here once termed it) qualities. The
>difference is unimportant to some, but to Christians (which I am not) it is
>In the Christian mythos, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus was, and
>ever will be, a *unique* event. As such, it can never be replicated--to do
>so would cheapen the magnitude of the supreme sacrifice. This distinguishes
>Jesus from the many cyclical dying-and-resurrecting gods we are familiar
>While it is true that there are correspondences between the lives of Jesus
>and Severian, it is equally true that Severian manifests the qualities of
>a -- well, duh! -- generic sun god, but that doesn't make him Mithra, or any
>of the others.
>As for Severian the Conciliator being the same as Jesus, the "bridge" that
>reconciles Man and God, he is *not*. He is a conciliator between Man and the
>Hierogrammates, as the text makes clear.
>Shortly after his being returned to Urth in Typhon's era, the villagers
>complained to Severian about the cold weather (occasioned by the sun's
>recent decline) that had ruined their crops in recent years, saying "The sky
>people are angry with us." He explained:
>"The sky people-the Hierodules and Hierarchs-do not hate us. It is only that
>they are remote from us, and they fear us because of things we did before,
>long ago when our race was young. I have gone to them." I watched the
>villagers' expressionless faces, wondering whether any of them would believe
>me. "I have effected a conciliation-brought them nearer us and us nearer
>them, I think. They've sent me back." (URTH, chap. XXIX, p.-204)
>It can be argued -- and it has been -- whether or not the Hierogrammates
>were acting on orders from On High, or even that they only *believed* they
>were doing God's will, willingly or unwillingly, but the textual fact of the
>matter is that Severian, the Conciliator, was a bridge between Man and the
>Hierogrammates, not Man and God.
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