(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

Sun Jul 20 18:42:57 PDT 2008

Fine, fine. Everyone's got to have a hobby.

.

> I'm not here to question your personal religious views.  But your
> second-to-last sentence is not orthodox Catholic theology--we can't
> assume that Wolfe agrees with it on the basis of his Catholicism.
>
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 9:22 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>> Well, if that's the kind of thing you enjoy, you go right ahead and do
>> that.
>>
>> I find it instructive to read the bits in the Bible where humans
>> encounter
>> angels, especially Abraham with the boys on the way to Sodom. Also the
>> bit
>> about an angel being a demon that stands between you and something that
>> wants to hurt you.
>>
>> Also, I am quite comfortable with the idea that God does evil things as
>> well as good things.
>>
>> Remember, everything that occurs is the will of God.
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>> I'm not debating whether it sucks equally for the person dying; I'm
>>> debating whether the morality of the person doing the killing is the
>>> same.
>>>
>>> Another way to put it--the moral authority of an angel derives from
>>> the fact that the angel is doing God's will, not from the angel's
>>> superior position to man on the Great Chain of Being--demons are
>>> equally "above" man but act immorally because their actions do not
>>> conform with God's will.
>>>
>>> The Hierogrammates have no special access to the will of the Increate.
>>>  They are guessing.  I'd prefer that genocide be based on something
>>> better than a guess.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 8:05 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>> I am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the
>>>> difference, and appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> The World ends every time a person dies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't mean to be snarky.  I'm simply saying that bringing about
>>>>> the
>>>>> end of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of
>>>>> a
>>>>> breeding program.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>>>> No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God
>>>>>> does,
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> least according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Revelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left
>>>>>> behind.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> find it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are
>>>>>> saying without evidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes.  Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a
>>>>>>> Catholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Have you read Revelations?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.  You
>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>> to believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> some kind of "secular humanist."  I can assure you that this is
>>>>>>>>> far
>>>>>>>>> from the truth.  My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to
>>>>>>>>> reconcile
>>>>>>>>> what I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that
>>>>>>>>> Severian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> I see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false
>>>>>>>>> angels enacting a program of genocide.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think that the source you linked does what you think it
>>>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>>> It refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice.  The
>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>> that Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make
>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> angel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> don't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to
>>>>>>>>> genocide
>>>>>>>>> in any moral system I can think of.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical
>>>>>>>>> angels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and
>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>> work independently of them.  The Hierogrammates, however, most
>>>>>>>>> certainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> what the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means.  My point
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> the Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe
>>>>>>>>> in)
>>>>>>>>> and other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> morality may be extended to the First Principle that is not
>>>>>>>>> extended
>>>>>>>>> to intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> may only guess at His will.  The Biblical angels have no such
>>>>>>>>> restriction.--another point that militates against reading the
>>>>>>>>> Hierogrammates as literal angels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and
>>>>>>>>> acts
>>>>>>>>> of warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> understand  Judeo-Christian ethics.  Likewise, the notion that
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Hebrews are "a race contaminated" in absolutely antithetical to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> contemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are
>>>>>>>>> "a
>>>>>>>>> race contaminated" due to the actions the God of the Old
>>>>>>>>> Testament
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> a notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> Gnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an
>>>>>>>>> evil
>>>>>>>>> demiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never
>>>>>>>>> have.
>>>>>>>>> This doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge,
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> course, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> a worthy one.  Pas certainly takes that role.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here's another way to put my point.  When a group of beings claim
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> be angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them?  Especially
>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>> they concede that:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1)  They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans
>>>>>>>>> 2)  They are not in direct contact with God
>>>>>>>>> 3)  They are not eternal
>>>>>>>>> 4)  They appear to exercise free will
>>>>>>>>> 5)  They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities
>>>>>>>>> accorded
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> angels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> topic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a
>>>>>>>>> mysterious
>>>>>>>>> agenda.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name
>>>>>>>>> ending in "-el" it would be just as good a match for an angel as
>>>>>>>>> Tzadkiel.  And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument,
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> fact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book
>>>>>>>>> butchering
>>>>>>>>> people isn't a sign that he's not an angel.  I like this new
>>>>>>>>> theory.
>>>>>>>>> It puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light.  The Shrike
>>>>>>>>> Church is ctually doing the will of God.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp
>>>>>>>>> <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John Watkins:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key
>>>>>>>>>> omissions,
>>>>>>>>>> I sense it is
>>>>>>>>>> a rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact
>>>>>>>>>> finding
>>>>>>>>>> or insight raising
>>>>>>>>>> endeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more
>>>>>>>>>> outside
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>>>>> of Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> mentioned. Could
>>>>>>>>>> be the basis for further discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> he/she
>>>>>>>>>> is also
>>>>>>>>>> considered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that
>>>>>>>>>> Tzadkiel
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> the one
>>>>>>>>>> to intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that
>>>>>>>>>> Venant
>>>>>>>>>> is killed I think),
>>>>>>>>>> while omitting that "Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers
>>>>>>>>>> (along
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> Zophiel) who
>>>>>>>>>> follow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters
>>>>>>>>>> battle."
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by
>>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>> without angelic help
>>>>>>>>>> while ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the
>>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>>> work of angels.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you
>>>>>>>>>> suggesting
>>>>>>>>>> that the Biblical God
>>>>>>>>>> and angels are sometimes working independently of each other?
>>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> don't see how an
>>>>>>>>>> invincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> flood of one of many
>>>>>>>>>> human worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in
>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>> cases.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now
>>>>>>>>>> rephrased)
>>>>>>>>>> question: How are
>>>>>>>>>> Hierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> immoral killing of human
>>>>>>>>>> beings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice
>>>>>>>>>> genocide,
>>>>>>>>>> territorial warfare and
>>>>>>>>>> individual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> impregnate one's
>>>>>>>>>> sister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's
>>>>>>>>>> wife)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you
>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe is a
>>>>>>>>>> secular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> thinking that Gene
>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and
>>>>>>>>>> Cabalistic God and angels
>>>>>>>>>> to be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race
>>>>>>>>>> contaminated by these evil
>>>>>>>>>> aliens while the New Testament God and angels are something
>>>>>>>>>> different-
>>>>>>>>>> better and more pure?
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting
>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>> anyway though not particularly
>>>>>>>>>> flattering to Mr. Wolfe.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian
>>>>>>>>>> interpretation:
>>>>>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe sees that
>>>>>>>>>> genocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has
>>>>>>>>>> continued on through to the present
>>>>>>>>>> day and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no
>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> awful it appears and we
>>>>>>>>>> must have faith that all is leading to a better future for
>>>>>>>>>> humanity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -bsharp
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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