(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

John Watkins john.watkins04 at gmail.com
Sun Jul 20 18:25:35 PDT 2008 

I'm not here to question your personal religious views.  But your
second-to-last sentence is not orthodox Catholic theology--we can't
assume that Wolfe agrees with it on the basis of his Catholicism.

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 9:22 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
> Well, if that's the kind of thing you enjoy, you go right ahead and do that.
>
> I find it instructive to read the bits in the Bible where humans encounter
> angels, especially Abraham with the boys on the way to Sodom. Also the bit
> about an angel being a demon that stands between you and something that
> wants to hurt you.
>
> Also, I am quite comfortable with the idea that God does evil things as
> well as good things.
>
> Remember, everything that occurs is the will of God.
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>> I'm not debating whether it sucks equally for the person dying; I'm
>> debating whether the morality of the person doing the killing is the
>> same.
>>
>> Another way to put it--the moral authority of an angel derives from
>> the fact that the angel is doing God's will, not from the angel's
>> superior position to man on the Great Chain of Being--demons are
>> equally "above" man but act immorally because their actions do not
>> conform with God's will.
>>
>> The Hierogrammates have no special access to the will of the Increate.
>>  They are guessing.  I'd prefer that genocide be based on something
>> better than a guess.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 8:05 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>> I am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the
>>> difference, and appreciate it.
>>>
>>> The World ends every time a person dies.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>> I didn't mean to be snarky.  I'm simply saying that bringing about the
>>>> end of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a
>>>> breeding program.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>>> No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does,
>>>>> at
>>>>> least according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in
>>>>> Revelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left
>>>>> behind.
>>>>> I
>>>>> find it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are
>>>>> saying without evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes.  Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a
>>>>>> Catholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Have you read Revelations?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.  You
>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>> to believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> some kind of "secular humanist."  I can assure you that this is far
>>>>>>>> from the truth.  My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile
>>>>>>>> what I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that
>>>>>>>> Severian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> I see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false
>>>>>>>> angels enacting a program of genocide.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think that the source you linked does what you think it
>>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>> It refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice.  The
>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>> that Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> angel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> don't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to
>>>>>>>> genocide
>>>>>>>> in any moral system I can think of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical
>>>>>>>> angels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> work independently of them.  The Hierogrammates, however, most
>>>>>>>> certainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> what the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means.  My point about
>>>>>>>> the Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe
>>>>>>>> in)
>>>>>>>> and other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of
>>>>>>>> morality may be extended to the First Principle that is not
>>>>>>>> extended
>>>>>>>> to intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> may only guess at His will.  The Biblical angels have no such
>>>>>>>> restriction.--another point that militates against reading the
>>>>>>>> Hierogrammates as literal angels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and
>>>>>>>> acts
>>>>>>>> of warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to
>>>>>>>> understand  Judeo-Christian ethics.  Likewise, the notion that the
>>>>>>>> Hebrews are "a race contaminated" in absolutely antithetical to the
>>>>>>>> contemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are
>>>>>>>> "a
>>>>>>>> race contaminated" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> a notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> Gnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil
>>>>>>>> demiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.
>>>>>>>> This doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of
>>>>>>>> course, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> a worthy one.  Pas certainly takes that role.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's another way to put my point.  When a group of beings claim
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them?  Especially
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> they concede that:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1)  They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans
>>>>>>>> 2)  They are not in direct contact with God
>>>>>>>> 3)  They are not eternal
>>>>>>>> 4)  They appear to exercise free will
>>>>>>>> 5)  They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> angels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> topic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a
>>>>>>>> mysterious
>>>>>>>> agenda.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name
>>>>>>>> ending in "-el" it would be just as good a match for an angel as
>>>>>>>> Tzadkiel.  And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument,
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> fact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book
>>>>>>>> butchering
>>>>>>>> people isn't a sign that he's not an angel.  I like this new
>>>>>>>> theory.
>>>>>>>> It puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light.  The Shrike
>>>>>>>> Church is ctually doing the will of God.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp
>>>>>>>> <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John Watkins:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key
>>>>>>>>> omissions,
>>>>>>>>> I sense it is
>>>>>>>>> a rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact
>>>>>>>>> finding
>>>>>>>>> or insight raising
>>>>>>>>> endeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>>>> of Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you
>>>>>>>>> mentioned. Could
>>>>>>>>> be the basis for further discussion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that
>>>>>>>>> he/she
>>>>>>>>> is also
>>>>>>>>> considered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that
>>>>>>>>> Tzadkiel
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> the one
>>>>>>>>> to intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that
>>>>>>>>> Venant
>>>>>>>>> is killed I think),
>>>>>>>>> while omitting that "Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> Zophiel) who
>>>>>>>>> follow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters
>>>>>>>>> battle."
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by
>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>> without angelic help
>>>>>>>>> while ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the
>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>> work of angels.
>>>>>>>>> I'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you
>>>>>>>>> suggesting
>>>>>>>>> that the Biblical God
>>>>>>>>> and angels are sometimes working independently of each other?
>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> don't see how an
>>>>>>>>> invincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> flood of one of many
>>>>>>>>> human worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both
>>>>>>>>> cases.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now
>>>>>>>>> rephrased)
>>>>>>>>> question: How are
>>>>>>>>> Hierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their
>>>>>>>>> immoral killing of human
>>>>>>>>> beings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice
>>>>>>>>> genocide,
>>>>>>>>> territorial warfare and
>>>>>>>>> individual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> impregnate one's
>>>>>>>>> sister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe is a
>>>>>>>>> secular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you
>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>> thinking that Gene
>>>>>>>>> Wolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and
>>>>>>>>> Cabalistic God and angels
>>>>>>>>> to be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race
>>>>>>>>> contaminated by these evil
>>>>>>>>> aliens while the New Testament God and angels are something
>>>>>>>>> different-
>>>>>>>>> better and more pure?
>>>>>>>>> I don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting
>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>> anyway though not particularly
>>>>>>>>> flattering to Mr. Wolfe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian
>>>>>>>>> interpretation:
>>>>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe sees that
>>>>>>>>> genocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has
>>>>>>>>> continued on through to the present
>>>>>>>>> day and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> awful it appears and we
>>>>>>>>> must have faith that all is leading to a better future for
>>>>>>>>> humanity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -bsharp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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