(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

John Watkins john.watkins04 at gmail.com
Sun Jul 20 18:11:00 PDT 2008 

I'm not debating whether it sucks equally for the person dying; I'm
debating whether the morality of the person doing the killing is the
same.

Another way to put it--the moral authority of an angel derives from
the fact that the angel is doing God's will, not from the angel's
superior position to man on the Great Chain of Being--demons are
equally "above" man but act immorally because their actions do not
conform with God's will.

The Hierogrammates have no special access to the will of the Increate.
 They are guessing.  I'd prefer that genocide be based on something
better than a guess.

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 8:05 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
> I am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the
> difference, and appreciate it.
>
> The World ends every time a person dies.
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>> I didn't mean to be snarky.  I'm simply saying that bringing about the
>> end of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a
>> breeding program.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>> No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does, at
>>> least according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in
>>> Revelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?
>>>
>>> That's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left behind.
>>> I
>>> find it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are
>>> saying without evidence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes.  Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a
>>>> Catholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>>> Have you read Revelations?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.  You
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>> to believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is
>>>>>> some kind of "secular humanist."  I can assure you that this is far
>>>>>> from the truth.  My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile
>>>>>> what I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that
>>>>>> Severian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what
>>>>>> I see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false
>>>>>> angels enacting a program of genocide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.
>>>>>> It refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice.  The fact
>>>>>> that Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an
>>>>>> angel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.  I
>>>>>> don't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide
>>>>>> in any moral system I can think of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical
>>>>>> angels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> work independently of them.  The Hierogrammates, however, most
>>>>>> certainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to
>>>>>> what the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means.  My point about
>>>>>> the Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)
>>>>>> and other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of
>>>>>> morality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended
>>>>>> to intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and
>>>>>> may only guess at His will.  The Biblical angels have no such
>>>>>> restriction.--another point that militates against reading the
>>>>>> Hierogrammates as literal angels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts
>>>>>> of warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to
>>>>>> understand  Judeo-Christian ethics.  Likewise, the notion that the
>>>>>> Hebrews are "a race contaminated" in absolutely antithetical to the
>>>>>> contemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are "a
>>>>>> race contaminated" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is
>>>>>> a notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> Gnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil
>>>>>> demiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.
>>>>>> This doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of
>>>>>> course, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a worthy one.  Pas certainly takes that role.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's another way to put my point.  When a group of beings claim to
>>>>>> be angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them?  Especially when
>>>>>> they concede that:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1)  They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans
>>>>>> 2)  They are not in direct contact with God
>>>>>> 3)  They are not eternal
>>>>>> 4)  They appear to exercise free will
>>>>>> 5)  They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> angels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the
>>>>>> topic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious
>>>>>> agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name
>>>>>> ending in "-el" it would be just as good a match for an angel as
>>>>>> Tzadkiel.  And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that
>>>>>> fact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book
>>>>>> butchering
>>>>>> people isn't a sign that he's not an angel.  I like this new theory.
>>>>>> It puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light.  The Shrike
>>>>>> Church is ctually doing the will of God.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Watkins:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key
>>>>>>> omissions,
>>>>>>> I sense it is
>>>>>>> a rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact
>>>>>>> finding
>>>>>>> or insight raising
>>>>>>> endeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>> of Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you
>>>>>>> mentioned. Could
>>>>>>> be the basis for further discussion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that
>>>>>>> he/she
>>>>>>> is also
>>>>>>> considered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> the one
>>>>>>> to intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that
>>>>>>> Venant
>>>>>>> is killed I think),
>>>>>>> while omitting that "Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> Zophiel) who
>>>>>>> follow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle."
>>>>>>> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God
>>>>>>> without angelic help
>>>>>>> while ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the
>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>> work of angels.
>>>>>>> I'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting
>>>>>>> that the Biblical God
>>>>>>> and angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't see how an
>>>>>>> invincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> flood of one of many
>>>>>>> human worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both
>>>>>>> cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)
>>>>>>> question: How are
>>>>>>> Hierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their
>>>>>>> immoral killing of human
>>>>>>> beings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,
>>>>>>> territorial warfare and
>>>>>>> individual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to
>>>>>>> impregnate one's
>>>>>>> sister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe is a
>>>>>>> secular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you
>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>> thinking that Gene
>>>>>>> Wolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and
>>>>>>> Cabalistic God and angels
>>>>>>> to be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race
>>>>>>> contaminated by these evil
>>>>>>> aliens while the New Testament God and angels are something
>>>>>>> different-
>>>>>>> better and more pure?
>>>>>>> I don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea
>>>>>>> anyway though not particularly
>>>>>>> flattering to Mr. Wolfe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian
>>>>>>> interpretation:
>>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe sees that
>>>>>>> genocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has
>>>>>>> continued on through to the present
>>>>>>> day and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> awful it appears and we
>>>>>>> must have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -bsharp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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