(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

Sun Jul 20 17:05:16 PDT 2008

I am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the
difference, and appreciate it.

The World ends every time a person dies.

.

> I didn't mean to be snarky.  I'm simply saying that bringing about the
> end of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a
> breeding program.
>
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>> No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does, at
>> least according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in
>> Revelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?
>>
>> That's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left behind.
>> I
>> find it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are
>> saying without evidence.
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>> Yes.  Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a
>>> Catholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>> Have you read Revelations?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>> It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.  You
>>>>> seem
>>>>> to believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is
>>>>> some kind of "secular humanist."  I can assure you that this is far
>>>>> from the truth.  My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile
>>>>> what I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that
>>>>> Severian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what
>>>>> I see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false
>>>>> angels enacting a program of genocide.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.
>>>>> It refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice.  The fact
>>>>> that Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an
>>>>> angel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.  I
>>>>> don't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide
>>>>> in any moral system I can think of.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical
>>>>> angels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and
>>>>> does
>>>>> work independently of them.  The Hierogrammates, however, most
>>>>> certainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to
>>>>> what the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means.  My point about
>>>>> the Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)
>>>>> and other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of
>>>>> morality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended
>>>>> to intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and
>>>>> may only guess at His will.  The Biblical angels have no such
>>>>> restriction.--another point that militates against reading the
>>>>> Hierogrammates as literal angels.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts
>>>>> of warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to
>>>>> understand  Judeo-Christian ethics.  Likewise, the notion that the
>>>>> Hebrews are "a race contaminated" in absolutely antithetical to the
>>>>> contemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are "a
>>>>> race contaminated" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is
>>>>> a notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.
>>>>> The
>>>>> Gnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil
>>>>> demiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.
>>>>> This doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of
>>>>> course, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is
>>>>> is
>>>>> a worthy one.  Pas certainly takes that role.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's another way to put my point.  When a group of beings claim to
>>>>> be angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them?  Especially when
>>>>> they concede that:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1)  They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans
>>>>> 2)  They are not in direct contact with God
>>>>> 3)  They are not eternal
>>>>> 4)  They appear to exercise free will
>>>>> 5)  They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded
>>>>> to
>>>>> angels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the
>>>>> topic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious
>>>>> agenda.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name
>>>>> ending in "-el" it would be just as good a match for an angel as
>>>>> Tzadkiel.  And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that
>>>>> fact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book
>>>>> butchering
>>>>> people isn't a sign that he's not an angel.  I like this new theory.
>>>>> It puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light.  The Shrike
>>>>> Church is ctually doing the will of God.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Watkins:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key
>>>>>> omissions,
>>>>>> I sense it is
>>>>>> a rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact
>>>>>> finding
>>>>>> or insight raising
>>>>>> endeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>> of Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you
>>>>>> mentioned. Could
>>>>>> be the basis for further discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that
>>>>>> he/she
>>>>>> is also
>>>>>> considered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> the one
>>>>>> to intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that
>>>>>> Venant
>>>>>> is killed I think),
>>>>>> while omitting that "Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> Zophiel) who
>>>>>> follow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle."
>>>>>> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God
>>>>>> without angelic help
>>>>>> while ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> work of angels.
>>>>>> I'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting
>>>>>> that the Biblical God
>>>>>> and angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don't see how an
>>>>>> invincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> flood of one of many
>>>>>> human worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both
>>>>>> cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)
>>>>>> question: How are
>>>>>> Hierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their
>>>>>> immoral killing of human
>>>>>> beings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,
>>>>>> territorial warfare and
>>>>>> individual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to
>>>>>> impregnate one's
>>>>>> sister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe is a
>>>>>> secular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you
>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>> thinking that Gene
>>>>>> Wolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and
>>>>>> Cabalistic God and angels
>>>>>> to be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race
>>>>>> contaminated by these evil
>>>>>> aliens while the New Testament God and angels are something
>>>>>> different-
>>>>>> better and more pure?
>>>>>> I don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea
>>>>>> anyway though not particularly
>>>>>> flattering to Mr. Wolfe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian
>>>>>> interpretation:
>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe sees that
>>>>>> genocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has
>>>>>> continued on through to the present
>>>>>> day and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> awful it appears and we
>>>>>> must have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -bsharp
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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