(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

Sun Jul 20 14:26:15 PDT 2008

Yes.  Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a
Catholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
> Have you read Revelations?
>
>
> .
>
>> It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.  You seem
>> to believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is
>> some kind of "secular humanist."  I can assure you that this is far
>> from the truth.  My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile
>> what I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that
>> Severian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what
>> I see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false
>> angels enacting a program of genocide.
>>
>> I don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.
>> It refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice.  The fact
>> that Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an
>> angel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.  I
>> don't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide
>> in any moral system I can think of.
>>
>> Your point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical
>> angels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does
>> work independently of them.  The Hierogrammates, however, most
>> certainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to
>> what the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means.  My point about
>> the Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)
>> and other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of
>> morality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended
>> to intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and
>> may only guess at His will.  The Biblical angels have no such
>> restriction.--another point that militates against reading the
>> Hierogrammates as literal angels.
>>
>> If you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts
>> of warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to
>> understand  Judeo-Christian ethics.  Likewise, the notion that the
>> Hebrews are "a race contaminated" in absolutely antithetical to the
>> contemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are "a
>> race contaminated" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is
>> a notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.  The
>> Gnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil
>> demiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.
>> This doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of
>> course, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is
>> a worthy one.  Pas certainly takes that role.
>>
>> Here's another way to put my point.  When a group of beings claim to
>> be angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them?  Especially when
>> they concede that:
>>
>> 1)  They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans
>> 2)  They are not in direct contact with God
>> 3)  They are not eternal
>> 4)  They appear to exercise free will
>> 5)  They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to
>> angels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the
>> topic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious
>> agenda.
>>
>> In fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name
>> ending in "-el" it would be just as good a match for an angel as
>> Tzadkiel.  And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that
>> fact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering
>> people isn't a sign that he's not an angel.  I like this new theory.
>> It puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light.  The Shrike
>> Church is ctually doing the will of God.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Watkins:
>>>
>>> a nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key omissions,
>>> I sense it is
>>> a rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact finding
>>> or insight raising
>>> endeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.
>>>
>>> Mentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of the
>>> mainstream
>>> of Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you
>>> mentioned. Could
>>> be the basis for further discussion.
>>>
>>> But you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that he/she
>>> is also
>>> considered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel was
>>> the one
>>> to intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that Venant
>>> is killed I think),
>>> while omitting that "Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along with
>>> Zophiel) who
>>> follow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle."
>>> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel
>>>
>>> In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God
>>> without angelic help
>>> while ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the specific
>>> work of angels.
>>> I'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting
>>> that the Biblical God
>>> and angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I
>>> don't see how an
>>> invincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the
>>> flood of one of many
>>> human worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both
>>> cases.
>>>
>>> But the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)
>>> question: How are
>>> Hierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their
>>> immoral killing of human
>>> beings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,
>>> territorial warfare and
>>> individual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to
>>> impregnate one's
>>> sister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?
>>>
>>> You've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can think
>>> that Gene Wolfe is a
>>> secular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you perhaps
>>> thinking that Gene
>>> Wolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and
>>> Cabalistic God and angels
>>> to be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race
>>> contaminated by these evil
>>> aliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different-
>>> better and more pure?
>>> I don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea
>>> anyway though not particularly
>>> flattering to Mr. Wolfe.
>>>
>>> A much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation:
>>> that Gene Wolfe sees that
>>> genocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has
>>> continued on through to the present
>>> day and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how
>>> awful it appears and we
>>> must have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.
>>>
>>> -bsharp
>>>
>>>
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