(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

[brunians at brunians.org]

Have you read Revelations?


.

> It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.  You seem
> to believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is
> some kind of "secular humanist."  I can assure you that this is far
> from the truth.  My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile
> what I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that
> Severian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what
> I see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false
> angels enacting a program of genocide.
>
> I don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.
> It refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice.  The fact
> that Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an
> angel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.  I
> don't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide
> in any moral system I can think of.
>
> Your point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical
> angels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does
> work independently of them.  The Hierogrammates, however, most
> certainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to
> what the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means.  My point about
> the Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)
> and other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of
> morality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended
> to intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and
> may only guess at His will.  The Biblical angels have no such
> restriction.--another point that militates against reading the
> Hierogrammates as literal angels.
>
> If you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts
> of warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to
> understand  Judeo-Christian ethics.  Likewise, the notion that the
> Hebrews are "a race contaminated" in absolutely antithetical to the
> contemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are "a
> race contaminated" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is
> a notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.  The
> Gnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil
> demiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.
> This doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of
> course, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is
> a worthy one.  Pas certainly takes that role.
>
> Here's another way to put my point.  When a group of beings claim to
> be angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them?  Especially when
> they concede that:
>
> 1)  They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans
> 2)  They are not in direct contact with God
> 3)  They are not eternal
> 4)  They appear to exercise free will
> 5)  They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to
> angels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the
> topic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious
> agenda.
>
> In fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name
> ending in "-el" it would be just as good a match for an angel as
> Tzadkiel.  And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that
> fact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering
> people isn't a sign that he's not an angel.  I like this new theory.
> It puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light.  The Shrike
> Church is ctually doing the will of God.
>
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> John Watkins:
>>
>> a nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key omissions,
>> I sense it is
>> a rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact finding
>> or insight raising
>> endeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.
>>
>> Mentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of the
>> mainstream
>> of Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you
>> mentioned. Could
>> be the basis for further discussion.
>>
>> But you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that he/she
>> is also
>> considered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel was
>> the one
>> to intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that Venant
>> is killed I think),
>> while omitting that "Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along with
>> Zophiel) who
>> follow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle."
>> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel
>>
>> In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God
>> without angelic help
>> while ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the specific
>> work of angels.
>> I'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting
>> that the Biblical God
>> and angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I
>> don't see how an
>> invincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the
>> flood of one of many
>> human worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both
>> cases.
>>
>> But the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)
>> question: How are
>> Hierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their
>> immoral killing of human
>> beings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,
>> territorial warfare and
>> individual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to
>> impregnate one's
>> sister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?
>>
>> You've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can think
>> that Gene Wolfe is a
>> secular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you perhaps
>> thinking that Gene
>> Wolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and
>> Cabalistic God and angels
>> to be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race
>> contaminated by these evil
>> aliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different-
>> better and more pure?
>> I don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea
>> anyway though not particularly
>> flattering to Mr. Wolfe.
>>
>> A much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation:
>> that Gene Wolfe sees that
>> genocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has
>> continued on through to the present
>> day and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how
>> awful it appears and we
>> must have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.
>>
>> -bsharp
>>
>>
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