(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

[brunians at brunians.org]

> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:57 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

>> !!
>>

> Come on, don't just "!!" me, explain -  I'm genuinely curious.

Arjuna saw his uncles, grandfathers, teachers, maternal uncles, brothers,
sons, grandsons, and comrades. (1.26)

Seeing fathers-in-law, all those kinsmen, and other dear ones standing in
the ranks of the two armies, (1.27)

Arjuna was overcome with great compassion and sorrowfully said: O Krishna,
seeing my kinsmen standing with a desire to fight, (1.28)

My limbs fail and my mouth becomes dry. My body quivers and my hairs stand
on end. (1.29)

The bow, Gaandeeva, slips from my hand and my skin intensely burns. My
head turns, I am unable to stand steady and, O Krishna, I see bad omens. I
see no use of killing my kinsmen in battle. (1.30-31)

I desire neither victory nor pleasure nor kingdom, O Krishna. What is the
use of the kingdom, or enjoyment, or even life, O Krishna? (1.32)

Because all those, for whom we desire kingdom, enjoyments, and pleasures,
are standing here for the battle, giving up their lives and wealth. (1.33)

Teachers, uncles, sons, grandfathers, maternal uncles, fathers-in-law,
grandsons, brothers-in-law, and other relatives. (1.34)

I do not wish to kill them, who are also about to kill, even for the
sovereignty of the three worlds, let alone for this earthly kingdom, O
Krishna. (1.35)

...


Lord Krishna, as if smiling, spoke these words to the despondent Arjuna in
the midst of the two armies. (2.10)

The Supreme Lord said: You grieve for those who are not worthy of grief,
and yet speak the words of wisdom. The wise grieve neither for the living
nor for the dead. (2.11)

There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor
shall we ever cease to exist in the future.

-- Gita

I don't know where to begin, really. But basically, Krishna explains why
it's all OK, at least under the right circumstances, He experiences it all
and doesn't get worked up about it. Arjuna argues with him (good man!) and
it goes back and forth for a while and finally Krishna shows Arjuna
himself in his God form, and Arjuna stops arguing.

It's not really that long: that's not an excerpt, in the Mahabharata,
that's the whole thing.

http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/gita.htm

>> You are assuming that they are all random. What if you could cause them?

>> Or meteor strikes, directing large rocks at planets inhabited by one's
>> enemies is well within human capability, which the other is not just
>> yet.

>  Sure, why not.  (Though I could've sworn you were referring to an act of
> nature - an intentionally caused supernova a year would be a bit much)

Oh no, the one supernova a year is the total number of supernovas. I was
speculating maybe an occasional one happened less than by pure chance. And
supernovas are huge events, clearing out big chunks of galaxies. Plain old
novas happen about three and a half times a year in just this galaxy
(according to http://www.springerlink.com/content/h0661351216h1326/) and
are sufficient to wipe out a stellar system. It's not inconceivable that
intelligent beings might learn how to make one happen.

>> I also differentiate between murder and homicide: all murder is
>> homicide, not all homicide is murder.

> Sure, that's why I (jokingly) mentioned manslaughter (less severe than
> murder).  The severity may vary, but purposefully causing death of
> unwilling souls is uniformly a bad thing.

There have been, historically, a number of dissenting opinions. I can't
really say that I agree with them, though certain of them (like those of
the Aztecs) I find sort of esthetically pleasing.

> Throughout this discussion I've tried to establish that it's still a bad
> thing, even if done by time-traveling aliens from another dimension, and
> even if it's done for a good cause.

Sure.

> I've been surprised by the resistance to this idea.

So why do bad things happen? Both YHVH and Krishna cheated when someone
got to argue with them. Tell me.



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