(urth) Typhon & the Whorl

[Dan]

At 04:48 PM 12/19/2007, thalassocrat wrote:

>One thing which points the other way: chem soldiers were stockpiled
>"for maybe 20 years" before being loaded onto the Whorl, according
>to Hammerstone.

I think that is good evidence for how long it took to construct the Whorl, 
which reinforces my point that Typhon hijacked it. It wasn't built 
specifically as a personal monument to his grandeur or chariot to the 
stars. If anything, it seems like a living cultural museum to preserve 
Earth's social diversity. Given the rapidity of the decline and the length 
of time for construction it almost seems that there was extraterrestrial 
influence to motivate it's construction and then bring about the disaster 
which would necessitate it's existence. Like Noah's Ark and the great flood.

At 06:58 AM 12/20/2007, gwern wrote:

>OK, here's another sticking point for me. We both agree Typhon's decline 
>was swift, and so it's unlikely the Whorl was constructed during or after 
>the period where he was stranded on Urth.
>
>It somewhat follows from that that the whorl was not originally intended 
>to be an escape vessel for some form of Typhon. But the Whorl is a STL 
>ship! Why, in a period where there was FTL travel, and extremely capacious 
>FTL travel (the ship Severian travels on in Urth of the New Sun is just 
>absolutely colossal) at that, would they have planned and begun to 
>construct an STL vessel in the first place? Even if the available FTL 
>vessels couldn't carry so much cargo, they might still best STL vessels 
>given that they could make multiple trips.

I have a vague memory ihat in Citadel, there was a discussion about 
technology (which may have tied in with why the Hieros didn't use their 
ships to save the doomed population) with the point being that Earth 
couldn't make everything and some things had to be procured from other 
worlds. I think FTL technology would fall under this category and no doubt 
the Hieros would be reluctant to part with it. Especially to a tyrant like 
Typhon. The ones he had under his control may have been loaners or 
inherited from previous, more benevolent rulers. Besides, I don't see the 
Whorl as a lifeboat, more of a living museum. Far more people could be 
accommodated by better utilizing it's volume than wasting it to isolate 
culturally different city states.

>thalassocrat wrote:

>Abaia etc are in the oceans of Urth during Typhon's reign, and
>given that his family knows about them, presumably he does too
>(whereas in NS their presence seems to be a new thing for the
>"resurrected" Typhon).

I always thought Abaia et al was part of the plot against Typhon by his 
family. That plot got transcribed to the Whorl when they were digitally 
scanned. They knew about the creatures because it was in the works but the 
NS Typhon didn't because it never unfolded before he was, uh, dehydrated. I 
don't recall any indication that Pas knew about them. In Typhon's time they 
were probably hiding, while in Sev's time they were more actively involved 
in the war and easier to discover. If Typhon knew of them before he 
wouldn't have hesitated a second to destroy them if he saw them as a 
threat. And I certainly doubt he would have given his digital family free 
run of mainframe if he suspected they were up to something.

>As it is, I have to think that Wolfe didn't care very much about
>making the two series consistent. But if he didn't, then why the
>tie in at all? So maybe he had something else in mind which I can't
>figure out.

It's a neat tie in to the previous series and provides one of those "hey 
wait a second" moments of revelation/realization. I do wish he would write 
a short story or novel exploring it further.

>Pedro Pereira wrote:
>
>As for the reason for constructing the Whorl, the major reason is that 
>Wolfe wanted to write a story about a generation starship. The second is 
>that Typhon wanted Immortality, he wanted to be Remembered. He was a 
>megalomaniac. He wanted to be worshiped for Eternity. So he built the 
>Whorl. Wolfe states so as the main reason in one of his interviews. Whith 
>the whorl he installs a new colony in which people adore him as a god. As 
>his empire grows, so does his cult. His name will not be a distant thing 
>of no importance to people on the fringes of a nominal-only empire. People 
>will actively worship him even if he never pays a visit in 100 years.

I'd certainly like to read that interview as it directly refutes one of my 
views on the issue.


Dan