<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Agreed! <br clear="all"></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes</div><div><br></div><div><em style="color:rgb(60,55,54);font-family:"Open Sans";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.125px">Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</em><br></div><div><em style="color:rgb(60,55,54);font-family:"Open Sans";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.125px">--</em><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Tȟašúŋke Witkó</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:20 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <<a href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I strongly urge all involved to drop this discussion, which I’m afraid I started, and return to the subject of Gene Wolfe.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Rick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Urth [mailto:<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Charles Gillingham<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 30, 2020 1:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"Idiot" is an ableist slur...<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Some of the most vulgar societies were the most stable. Walking down any given street in Augustus' Rome would have disgusted us. The graffiti in Pompeii was worse than any I've seen growing up in the hood. Evolution
isn't always a clean or polite process. The battle of ideas is just as dirty and violent as any other battle for survival.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:32 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com" target="_blank">danldo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">If you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Papa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization is in decline. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Note also that "civil" and "civilization" are intimately related words.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:rgb(60,55,54);letter-spacing:0.1pt">Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</span></em><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:rgb(60,55,54);letter-spacing:0.1pt">--</span></em><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(84,84,84)">Tȟašúŋke Witkó</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <<a href="mailto:charlesgillingham@gmail.com" target="_blank">charlesgillingham@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case). It's freedom to
disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com" target="_blank">danldo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Rick, you got it in one.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">I'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough to remember when it was "normal". But I come down fully on the side of "political correctness", or, as it is properly
know, <b><i>politeness</i></b>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:rgb(60,55,54);letter-spacing:0.1pt">Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</span></em><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:rgb(60,55,54);letter-spacing:0.1pt">--</span></em><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(84,84,84)">Tȟašúŋke Witkó</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <<a href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu" target="_blank">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want
to say rude things and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.<br>
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Rick</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Urth [mailto:<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gem Caccetta<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth@lists.urth.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Courier">On Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-stretch:normal"><span style="font-family:Courier">"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist…"</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif">I know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of
Free Live Free interesting:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-stretch:normal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Free says…”You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?”</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-stretch:normal"><span style="font-family:Courier">“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them,
I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:16px"><span style="font-family:Courier"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif">I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire
in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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