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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I also got sad when I reached the end of Evil Guest, and the end of Cassie’s voice, b/c I knew I would never hear that voice again. Wolfe knew it too. You could tell, reading the end of EG, he got emotional. Who wouldn’t?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>On the Gene Wolfe page on Facebook, someone invited people to read Pirate Freedom, for the purpose of convening later to discuss. Later meant about four weeks or so in the future, and that was a couple of weeks ago I guess. Anyway a bunch of folks hopped on, and I grabbed PF and read it in a couple of nights and it was as wistful and lovely (and violent and brutal) as ever. It’s been noted that Crisoforo’s voice seems at times too boyish – he is an educated Catholic priest, after all ! – but his voice changes appropriately I think; he is a pirate boy in lost history; a troubled priest in the modern world. Different person / voice in different times. He is different when his Novia is near, and marauding with Capt Burt. Anyway my point, if I have one, and maybe I don’t, is, I think many times in his heart Wolfe wrote as a young person filled with wonder and a yearning for romantic adventure. And so we get wistful moments like the poignant endings of Evil Guest and Pirate Freedom. And Wizard Knight, and so on. Severian, even when old and care-worn, was still a boy in his heart. A boy with his dog, a little lost, slightly thoughtless, the way young people can be.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>That’s more of a mere observation, and less of a point, but it was something I was thinking about as I scudded again through Pirate Freedom.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>*******<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Eric Bourland<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>https://www.hwaet.com/<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Urth <urth-bounces@lists.urth.net> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Norwood, Frederick Hudson<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 31, 2020 7:20 AM<br><b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <urth@lists.urth.net><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I strongly urge all involved to drop this discussion, which I’m afraid I started, and return to the subject of Gene Wolfe.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Rick<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Urth [<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net">mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Charles Gillingham<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 30, 2020 1:51 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"Idiot" is an ableist slur...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Some of the most vulgar societies were the most stable. Walking down any given street in Augustus' Rome would have disgusted us. The graffiti in Pompeii was worse than any I've seen growing up in the hood. Evolution isn't always a clean or polite process. The battle of ideas is just as dirty and violent as any other battle for survival.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:32 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com">danldo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'>If you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'>Papa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization is in decline. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'>Note also that "civil" and "civilization" are intimately related words.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><em><span style='font-family:"Open Sans";color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt'>Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</span></em><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><em><span style='font-family:"Open Sans";color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt'>--</span></em><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#545454'>Tȟašúŋke Witkó</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <<a href="mailto:charlesgillingham@gmail.com" target="_blank">charlesgillingham@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case). It's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want. <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com" target="_blank">danldo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'>Rick, you got it in one.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'>I'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough to remember when it was "normal". But I come down fully on the side of "political correctness", or, as it is properly know, <b><i>politeness</i></b>.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Georgia",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><em><span style='font-family:"Open Sans";color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt'>Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</span></em><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><em><span style='font-family:"Open Sans";color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt'>--</span></em><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#545454'>Tȟašúŋke Witkó</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <<a href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu" target="_blank">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.<br><br>Rick</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Urth [mailto:<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gem Caccetta<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth@lists.urth.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-family:Courier'>On Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-family:Courier'>"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist…"</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:16px'><span style='font-family:Courier'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif'>I know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-family:Courier'>Free says…”You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?”</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-family:Courier'>“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:16px'><span style='font-family:Courier'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif'>I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p><em><span style='color:red'>The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. </span></em><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></body></html>