<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">My view: There is a place for courtesy, and a place for plainspeak. Just like there is a place for biting your tongue, and a place for tough love.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My other view: We don’t get to control what someone else says, neither legally nor physically, so learning to deal with people who don’t follow your own views on speech (or anything else) is one of the most important skills you can obtain in life.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">One final view: Gene Wolfe was not misogynistic. He once started crying his eyes out while telling me how hard it was when he had to stop writing Cassie’s voice in An Evil Guest.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I know that one anecdote doesn’t summarize a man, or whether a man’s views on women evolved as he grew older, but I find it hard to buy into any flippant high ground aimed at marginalizing Wolfe’s portrayal of women in his literature.<br class=""><div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="">…ryan<br class=""><br class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><b class="">Ryan Dunn, Director</b></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Liftingfaces</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><a href="http://www.liftingfaces.com" class="">www.liftingfaces.com</a></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com" class="">danldo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">If you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Papa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization is in decline. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Note also that "civil" and "civilization" are intimately related words.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br class=""></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Dan'l Danehy-Oakes</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><em style="color:rgb(60,55,54);font-family:"Open Sans";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.125px" class="">Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</em><br class=""></div><div class=""><em style="color:rgb(60,55,54);font-family:"Open Sans";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.125px" class="">--</em><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px" class="">Tȟašúŋke Witkó</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <<a href="mailto:charlesgillingham@gmail.com" class="">charlesgillingham@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class="">Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case). It's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want. </div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">danldo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Rick, you got it in one.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough to remember when it was "normal". But I come down fully on the side of "political correctness", or, as it is properly know, <i style="font-weight:bold" class="">politeness</i>.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br class=""></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Dan'l Danehy-Oakes</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><em style="color:rgb(60,55,54);font-family:"Open Sans";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.125px" class="">Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</em><br class=""></div><div class=""><em style="color:rgb(60,55,54);font-family:"Open Sans";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.125px" class="">--</em><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px" class="">Tȟašúŋke Witkó</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <<a href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining about not being
allowed to be rude.<br class="">
<br class="">
Rick<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
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<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> Urth [mailto:<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b class="">On Behalf Of </b>Gem Caccetta<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> <a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">urth@lists.urth.net</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-family:Courier" class="">On Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-stretch: normal;" class="">
<span style="font-family:Courier" class="">"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist…"<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-stretch: normal; min-height: 16px;" class="">
<span style="font-family:Courier" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif" class="">I know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-stretch: normal;" class="">
<span style="font-family:Courier" class="">Free says…”You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?”<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-stretch: normal;" class="">
<span style="font-family:Courier" class="">“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-stretch: normal; min-height: 16px;" class="">
<span style="font-family:Courier" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif" class="">I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess,
for what it’s worth.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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</div><p class=""><em class=""><span style="color:red" class="">The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you
to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk.
</span></em><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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