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<p>I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being
a christian misogynist. To compare Wolfe and Heinlein in the ways
they give expression to political ideas proves I think Wolfe the
more subtle. I think Wolfe values self reliance but is aware of
human limitation and evil. He is no ideologist as Heinlein might
be considered though his ideas changed from left to right. Wolfe
neither sanctifies the market nor the state and is critical of
both. His books are not a direct and obtrusive mouthpiece for his
faith.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Op 29-1-2020 om 13:50 schreef Norwood,
Frederick Hudson:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">P.S.
Sorry to have gone on so long about Heinlein. I mentioned
Heinlein only in the context of Wolfe’s The Land Across. I’m
sure there is a Heinlein thread for discussing Heinlein
apart from Wolfe. Let’s go back to Wolfe.<br>
<br>
Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rick
Norwood<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Urth [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net">mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Norwood, Frederick Hudson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 29, 2020 7:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><urth@lists.urth.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's
Universe and The Long Sun<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’ve
read Starship Troopers three times, but thank you for
correcting my memory – that it was “government service”
rather than “military service”. Just from memory, I thought
all government service, including work on Pluto, was under
the direction of the military. I’ll remember to look out for
that next time I read the book.<br>
<br>
I also enjoy Farnham’s Freehold, which I’ve read twice. The
childbirth scene is heartbreaking, and one of the best I’ve
read. I do not agree that his goal was to show that atomic
war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we
appreciate. The life on the Freehold seemed, in many ways
ideal. “Free Kittens!”<br>
<br>
To what extent Heinlein’s Grand Old Man is unreliable,
rather than a way for Heinlein to express his own ideas, is
a source of endless debate, and both sides hold their own
views pretty strongly. Clearly, you hold your views strongly
enough to accuse me of prejudice, even though I said, very
clearly, that I love Heinlein’s work. <br>
<br>
Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rick
Norwood <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Urth [<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 28, 2020 1:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <<a
href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" moz-do-not-send="true">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's
Universe and The Long Sun<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">I have a
better question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Have <i>you</i> read
<b><i>Starship Troopers</i></b>? Because you're making a
false statement about it. "Only people who have served
in the military can vote" - thanks for playing; come
again. What is true is that those who have performed
<i>some sort of government service</i> can vote. What is
also true is that <i>most
</i>of this is <i>not</i> military service - for
example, there's the guy who goes to work in an
observatory on Pluto. The idea here is that the vote has
to be earned by showing that you are willing to serve
the people whom your vote will help govern.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Farnham's
Freehold</span></i></b><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"> is a
failed novel. His goal was to show that atomic war would
completely wipe out the kind of civilization we
appreciate. As a side issue, he also wanted to show that
race prejudice is bad by flipping it over and putting
whites in the slave class. He screwed up by adding the
cannibalism thing, making the whole book so flawed that
it can't serve its intended purposes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Stranger</span></i></b><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">? Jubal
doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is
strongly implied that Mike
<i>does</i> have physical love with males as well as
females. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at
least experimented with another man when he was young.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">You're
reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is
that Heinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing
what you expect to see.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dan'l
Danehy-Oakes</span><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-family:"Open
Sans",serif;color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt">Maka
ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</span></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-family:"Open
Sans",serif;color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt">--</span></em><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#545454">Tȟašúŋke
Witkó</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM
Norwood, Frederick Hudson <<a
href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Have
you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have
served in the military can vote. (Heinlein claims
that, in this world, it has been proved
mathematically that this is the best government.
<br>
<br>
I love Starship Troopers. It’s one of my favorite
books. But it does glorify the military and, as
Heinlein got older, his politics got ever more
conservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming
Black people turn out to be cannibals. One area
where he did become more liberal was homosexuality.
In Stranger in a Strange Land Jubal Harshaw
expressed the view that Mike could never have sex
with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex
is just fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon,
who Heinlein loved and admired, took Heinlein aside
and explained to him the facts of life.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Urth [mailto:<a
href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <<a
href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's
Universe and The Long Sun</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">I
think it is safe to say that Heinlein
<i>never </i>"loved" or advocated a military
dictatorship. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dan'l
Danehy-Oakes<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><em><span
style="font-family:"Open
Sans",serif;color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt">Maka
ki ecela tehani
yanke lo!</span></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><em><span
style="font-family:"Open
Sans",serif;color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt">--</span></em><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#545454">Tȟašúŋke
Witkó</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick
Hudson <<a href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Other
Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land
Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s classic “man
who learns better” turned inside out. What
Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in
his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton,
starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein,
loves travel) and “learns” to love a
military dictatorship, with a mysterious
Hitler-like dictator serving as Heinlein’s
“grand old man”.<br>
<br>
Rick Norwood</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Urth [mailto:<a
href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Hoy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <<a
href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re:
Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Appreciating
the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and
Gerry; a reminder that RAH is still
relevant in the 21st century, as
Christopher Nuttall might put it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
interesting bit about the<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> conveyor
belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads Must
Roll is that it has a precedent, and a
much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells'
When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells'
title recalls a noticeable sentence in
TLA Chapter One "Now it seems to me that
I must have been asleep a long time
before I got into bed" followed by
several "awakenings" throughout TLA.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Note
that Wells and Wolfe each relate the
struggle of a potential ruler of a
dystopian society who gets caught up in
a struggle between opposing factions. I
don't think the parallels go much beyond
this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of
Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to
Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An
Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris
Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in
TLA, "I don't trust that conductor. Why
is he so short?" to draw attention to
Papa Zenon's lack of stature.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Aramini's
Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us
think about a lot of TLA's mysteries,
although I suspect there is a lot of
cloning going on along with the
imprinting of personalities. Imprinting
is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed
Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some
sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think
something similar is happening in The
Land Across. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-
Stephen <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood,
Frederick Hudson <<a
href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Another
Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is,
I think strongly influenced by
Heinlein, and essentially a satire
of Heinlein. This is just my
opinion, I’ve never heard anyone
else say this. But the Rolling
Roads early in the novel, which
play no other part in the plot, I
take as a hint.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
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style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">_______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">urth@urth.net</a><br>
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href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.urth.net</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">urth@urth.net</a><br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.urth.net</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Urth Mailing List
To post, write <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a>
Subscription/information: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.urth.net">http://www.urth.net</a></pre>
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