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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">P.S. Sorry to have gone on so long about Heinlein. I mentioned Heinlein only in the context of Wolfe’s The Land Across. I’m sure there is a Heinlein thread for
discussing Heinlein apart from Wolfe. Let’s go back to Wolfe.<br>
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Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rick Norwood<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Urth [mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Norwood, Frederick Hudson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 29, 2020 7:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <urth@lists.urth.net><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’ve read Starship Troopers three times, but thank you for correcting my memory – that it was “government service” rather than “military service”. Just from memory,
I thought all government service, including work on Pluto, was under the direction of the military. I’ll remember to look out for that next time I read the book.<br>
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I also enjoy Farnham’s Freehold, which I’ve read twice. The childbirth scene is heartbreaking, and one of the best I’ve read. I do not agree that his goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. The life
on the Freehold seemed, in many ways ideal. “Free Kittens!”<br>
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To what extent Heinlein’s Grand Old Man is unreliable, rather than a way for Heinlein to express his own ideas, is a source of endless debate, and both sides hold their own views pretty strongly. Clearly, you hold your views strongly enough to accuse me of
prejudice, even though I said, very clearly, that I love Heinlein’s work. <br>
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Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rick Norwood <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Urth [<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net">mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 28, 2020 1:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">I have a better question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Have <i>you</i> read
<b><i>Starship Troopers</i></b>? Because you're making a false statement about it. "Only people who have served in the military can vote" - thanks for playing; come again. What is true is that those who have performed
<i>some sort of government service</i> can vote. What is also true is that <i>most
</i>of this is <i>not</i> military service - for example, there's the guy who goes to work in an observatory on Pluto. The idea here is that the vote has to be earned by showing that you are willing to serve the people whom your vote will help govern.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Farnham's Freehold</span></i></b><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"> is a failed novel. His goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate.
As a side issue, he also wanted to show that race prejudice is bad by flipping it over and putting whites in the slave class. He screwed up by adding the cannibalism thing, making the whole book so flawed that it can't serve its intended purposes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">Stranger</span></i></b><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">? Jubal doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is strongly implied that Mike
<i>does</i> have physical love with males as well as females. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at least experimented with another man when he was young.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">You're reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is that Heinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing what you expect to see.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dan'l Danehy-Oakes</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt">Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</span></em><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt">--</span></em><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#545454">Tȟašúŋke Witkó</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <<a href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Have you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in the military can vote. (Heinlein claims
that, in this world, it has been proved mathematically that this is the best government.
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<br>
I love Starship Troopers. It’s one of my favorite books. But it does glorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics got ever more conservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming Black people turn out to be cannibals. One area where he
did become more liberal was homosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the view that Mike could never have sex with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex is just fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who Heinlein loved
and admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the facts of life.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Urth [mailto:<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif">I think it is safe to say that Heinlein
<i>never </i>"loved" or advocated a military dictatorship. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><em><span style="font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt">Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!</span></em><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><em><span style="font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:#3C3736;letter-spacing:.1pt">--</span></em><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#545454">Tȟašúŋke
Witkó</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <<a href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu" target="_blank">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Other Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s classic “man who learns
better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a military dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator
serving as Heinlein’s “grand old man”.<br>
<br>
Rick Norwood</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Urth [mailto:<a href="mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth-bounces@lists.urth.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen Hoy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Appreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall might put it.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The interesting bit about the<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and
a much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One "Now it seems to me that I must have been asleep a long time before I got into bed" followed by several "awakenings" throughout
TLA.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Note that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up
in a struggle between opposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a conversation
at a cafe in TLA, "I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so short?" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Aramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a
lot of cloning going on along with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think something similar is happening in The Land Across. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">- Stephen <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <<a href="mailto:NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu" target="_blank">NORWOODR@mail.etsu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by Heinlein, and essentially
a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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