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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Christ was entirely God, all powerful, all knowing, able to perform miracles. At the same time, he was all human, there was much he did not know, and much
he could not do. He prayed to God, asked God to change His mind, and asked God why He had forsaken Him.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This is one of the great Mysteries of Catholic dogma – and one of several reason why I’m not a Christian.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Rick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Urth [mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 06, 2014 2:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Urth Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: (urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an alternative lineage for Sev<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Antonio, it was this:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">> <span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Christ the man performed miracles through his faith in God, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">> nothing else. That is, Christ's ability to perform miracles wasn't</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">> in any way different from that of his disciples, who also performed</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">> them through faith in God.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">While I can see in looking back that you are not saying "He isn't God," it sure looked to me like you were - the next line even more so:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">> Christ wasn't able to perform miracles because he was God,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">> but because of his faith in God. He also prayed, while we're at it!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Can you see where I might have thought "not because he was God" meant "he was not God?" I could have read more carefully ... bu t I think you could have written it a bit more carefully also.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 11:35 AM, António Pedro Marques <<a href="mailto:entonio@gmail.com" target="_blank">entonio@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dan'l, I don't know where you're getting my presentation of Catholic/Orthodox theology from, but your 'wrong' is wrong - where exactly did I say anything about the issue you mention here? (I have said plenty about it, but not, I think,
on this forum, much less 'wrong').<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mmmmm - could it be the way you parsed 'wasn't...because he was God'? I thought it was clear in context. I don't know how to be more clear without major rewriting. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(For the record, my 'was' is merely because I'm referring to a specific time in the past. It has no implications outside.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
No dia 06/10/2014, às 18:54, "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com" target="_blank">danldo@gmail.com</a>> escreveu:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Antonio, I don't know where you're getting your Catholic/Orthodox theology, but it's wrong. Both churches clearly teach (cf. <a href="http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html" target="_blank">http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html</a>)
that Jesus Christ was God, the Son, begotten of the Father, true God from true God, but *also* fully human: twi-natured.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:14 AM, António Marques <<a href="mailto:entonio@gmail.com" target="_blank">entonio@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Christ the man performed miracles through his faith in God, nothing else. That is, Christ's ability to perform miracles wasn't in any way different from that of his disciples, who also performed them through faith in God. That is straight,
orthodox (and Orthodox), Catholic teaching, or should I say dogma. Christ wasn't able to perform miracles because he was God, but because of his faith in God. He also prayed, while we're at it!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2 October 2014 15:39, Matthew Weber <<a href="mailto:palaeologos@gmail.com" target="_blank">palaeologos@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Through faith in what, Himself?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Christ is a hypostasis of divinity and humanity. It's correct to say that his power is not magical (i.e. granted him by some other, more powerful agency). It is no more magical than my power to use my arm
to lift a cup of coffee to my mouth so I can drink it. My power to do so is inherent, as is Christ's to perform signs.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Insofar as Wolfe is an orthodox RC, it can be assumed that this is what he believes as well.<br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:14 AM, António Marques <<a href="mailto:entonio@gmail.com" target="_blank">entonio@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">And Christ performed miracles through faith, not by the use of some magical power belonging to himself.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2 October 2014 15:04, Brad Henry <<a href="mailto:bradhenry101@gmail.com" target="_blank">bradhenry101@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">And part of catholic teaching is that saints are not simply 'controlled by christ' in their working of miracles (many saints have performed miracles like severian') but they are in the process of 'theosis' (or, sometimes called 'divination'),
being made into gods, that culminates in their resurrection to immortality. It is a christian quip: "God became man, so that man might become (a) god." The traditional biblical cite for this is 2 Peter 1.3-4.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Marc Aramini <<a href="mailto:marcaramini@gmail.com" target="_blank">marcaramini@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This is obvious, but for me the miracles make him pretty explicitly a Judeo-Christian wonderworker/savior with a little sin and torture thrown in for good measure (bleeding from the forehead when he sees the many eye-winged butterfly, turning
water to wine, resurrecting the dead, healing, carrying a huge cross shaped torture device which is occasionally planted in the ground, being tempted by Satan almost verbatim (but never, say, transforming into an animal like a Pagan god)) - my earliest impression
when I was a young boy was not that he was a normal person but a Christ. The pagan gods are the unnatural creatures in New Sun whose mythologies are incorporated and transformed into Christian stories [such as the flood and the story of Genesis]. (At least
throughout The Book of the New Sun).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I never fancied Sev ordinary. While clearly Wolfe loves playing with mythical creatures, the importance of his Catholicism to his works shouldn't be understated.
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On Thursday, October 2, 2014, Lee <<a href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com" target="_blank">severiansola@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">>On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 7:35 AM, David Stockhoff <<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br>
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Severian is a (pagan) god. He has a presentiment of it at the beginning of his story but by the end<br>
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of Citadel, we are meant to understand that he was The Conciliator and he will be The New Sun.<br>
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By the end of Urth of the New Sun we also understand that in addition to his superhuman healing<br>
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powers, he was also worshipped as Apu Punchau, he can breathe underwater, he can travel through time<br>
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he is immortal (though not invulnerable), and at the very end he once again finds himself worshipped as<br>
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a god.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#888888">Matt +<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">For all that nature by her mother wit<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Could frame in earth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"> Edmund Spenser (1552-1599),
<i>The Faerie Queene [1590], bk. IV [1596], canto 10, st. 21</i><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <o:p></o:p></p>
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