<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;font-size:14pt"><div><span>Hello again, Mr Quinn.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 19px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><blockquote style="border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv4263714643"><div>'So, basically, you are
going to negate everything stated in the
books, and every incidental happening or description in the books,
on the basis of a hypothesis you have deduced from someone's
observation that a random whore has long legs. (In a house in which
the Master is known to carry out body-modifications on his girls,
from time to time, for that matter.)'</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv4263714643"><div><br></div><div>Actually, the bases of my 'hypothesis' are far more substantial than that. The matter has been discussed, and as you saw from my earlier post, Gene Wolfe himself confirms that Marsch is a Shadow Child.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>
Victor is described as human, albeit with unusual green eyes. The
idea that he is his own mother seems simply absurd, unless, again,
both he and everyone else are completely delusional. She only left
after he reached puberty.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>
1. Nobody has to be delusional, except Victor, in Shadow-Child fashion. Who else has seen his mother? Old Trenchard? How reliable is his testimony? Could he not have reasons for lying about her? Does Victor, in fact, have a mother at all?</div><div><br></div><div>2. Everyone on Ste. Anne <span style="font-style: italic;">is</span> slightly delusional; the real Marsch notes the hallucinatory quality of the light and atmosphere there in his journal, and we know from his Shadow-Child testimony ('A Story') that the Children can alter the appearance of reality, even to the extent of hiding two planets and their parent star from human observation.</div><div><br></div><div>However, I am <span style="font-style: italic;">not</span> arguing that everyone on Ste. Anne, far less Ste. Croix, is a shapeshifted aboriginal. Most people on both planets are indubitably human, even though one population, the people known as 'abos', has forgotten its ancient
roots. The Shadow Children, who are in no way human, preserved some knowledge of those roots and of human culture, but it was lost to the original settlers from Earth. In case you missed it earlier, I am proposing that the Annese (the 'abos') <span style="font-style: italic;">cannot</span> shapeshift.</div><div><br clear="none"></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>
If you want to deduce likely possibilities from odd sentences,
consider that Victor notes that on Sainte Anne he got some
information suggesting that his mother had gone to Sainte Croix, and
consider the illiterate woman in the cell beside him. *That* is
plausibly Victor's mother; it is deduced from subtle clues, but
unlike the global hypotheses that turn everything upside down, it
does not destroy everything else in the story whichever version you
choose to believe and therefore it is a thing that actually *can* be
left ambiguous.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>
What are the subtle clues that suggest this woman is Victor's mother? Pardon me if this has been discussed before. And if she <span style="font-style: italic;">is</span> his mother, how does that help us understand anything, or move the story along?</div><div><br clear="none"></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>
The legs could point to Maitre, or they could just be an example of
female artifice. It doesn't matter which, so it can be left
ambiguous. If it mattered, like in your theory, Wolfe would not
have just left it there. (Look how he hammers in the bit about abos
having green eyes.)</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>I dealt with this in my earlier reply. You're an experienced Wolfe reader, aren't you? You should know your man better. <span style="font-style: italic;">Everything</span> in a Gene Wolfe story is relevant, and the more incidental it appears at first sight, the more critical it is likely to be to a full understanding of the story and Wolfe's intent.</div><div>
<br clear="none"></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>Marsch hangs his coat on the hooks on the bedroom door, AS HE
USUALLY DOES. Presumably this is of some cosmic significance too.
And what of the ankle straps of the man in the green uniform -
clearly the idea that he rides a bicycle is sheer misdirection.
There must be at least one new alien species to be identified here -
but of course - it's the bicycles, like in The Third Policeman! One
of the other men is a horse-cab driver. People's cells mingle with
vehicles - Aunt Jeannine is the most advanced example. This
explains the symbolism about identity and the Abos' fear of
technology; THEY are the true humans, unwilling to merge with the
metallic overlords. The robots in the prison camps - fully
converted people? You get the point. I could add elements
purportedly supporting this hypothesis all day, or a hundred others
like it. How fast I can add them depends on how much I allow myself
to ignore contradictions in the text, or assume characters to be
preternaturally delusional. But I would be going nowhere.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>
Very impressive, but I doubt that you can point me to one 'contradiction in the text' that negates my reading of it. Especially since it is hardly mine alone, and the author endorses elements of it, if not the whole.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 14pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3429"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_16_0_1_1409579592241_3430"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div><span style="font-size: 12pt;">If everything exists to serve the author's purpose, then what of
everything that you are throwing away? What of Victor's
relationship with his mother? All just a load of delusional
nonsense, because everything is actually supposed to be deduced from
one sentence mentioning that a guy has a scarred head?</span><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;"><div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div class="y_msg_container"><div><div>
What have I thrown away? Are you certain that you have understood me correctly?</div><div><div class="yiv4263714643yqt5037769371" id="yiv4263714643yqtfd54185">
<br clear="none">
</div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Urth Mailing List<br clear="none">To post, write <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br clear="none">Subscription/information: <a shape="rect" href="http://www.urth.net/" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div> </div></body></html>