<div dir="ltr"><div>>David Stockhoff: As Jeff suggests (and this is the simplest path I can envision), three coffins have dead Severians and two do not yet have dead Severians.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><div>Or could it be the opposite: two clones have been released, and three are still yet to be awakened/activated. In this novel, an empty coffin may very well signify resurrection rather than eventual death, and so the two empty coffins could be those abandoned by the two Severians that have exited the mausoleum, gained the throne, and gone to their extrasolar trial (i.e., the two Severians of which we are told on pg. 406 of Citadel), leaving the three closed coffins housing Severians who have yet to rise and exit the mausoleum (note that pg. 12 of Shadow describes the three closed coffins as "waiting" on the shelf - waiting for what?). I know that Jeff's theory that the clones have already participated in the drama and are now dead explains why they are housed in a mausoleum, while my theory does not, and so I view both theories as good ones worthy of further exploration. </div>
<div> </div><div><br></div><div>>David Stockhoff: Are they truly clones or are they time-clones? Or eidolons?</div><div> </div><div><br></div><div>That's what's so confusing -- Wolfe gives us (1) clones, (2) alternate-time-traveling-versions, and (3) computer-hologram/eidolon/aquastor versions. Three independent ways to duplicate an individual. (Unhelpful but interesting tangent: this presents the possibility of the existence of an eidolon of a clone of an alternate timeline Severian, or an alternate timeline version of an eidolon of his clone, etc.) I think Jeff and I have been thinking of the five Severians as literal biological clones (Jeff, I don't mean to speak for you, please correct me if I'm wrong), but maybe the theory works better if the five coffins belong to five alternate-timeline Severians, all housed in the mausoleum which is dislocated in time and reachable from each alternate-time. </div>
<div> </div><div><br></div><div>>I could have sworn Severian died in BNS too, but not so definitively as when Sidero (I think) kills him. I can't recall the event and I'll have to look for it.</div><div> </div>
<div><br></div><div>Are you thinking of the avern battle with Agilus? I think a common interpretation is that Severian died and came back to life in that scene. </div>
<div> </div><div><br></div><div>>David Stockhoff: I am not even sure the Severian of UNS is the same Severian as BNS, or that Severian really did pass the test in UNS.</div><div> </div><div><br></div><div>I think a healthy skepticism about whether the narrators of UNS and BotNS are the same version of Severian is fair, but I don't know why you question whether he really did pass the test in UNS? I'm intrigued -- what makes you doubt that? </div>
<div> </div><div><br></div><div>>Jeffrey Wilson: I recall we are told that metal has become rather more precious in Sev's time. The mausoleum may be signified as out of that time by the unstolen funeral bronzes, perhaps similar to Valeria's metal trimmed dress. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Interesting observation. I think we should gather all the evidence and really try to figure out if Wolfe included the clues necessary for the reader to conclude that the mausoleum is temporally dislocated. I'll be working on that - any thoughts would be appreciated.</div>
<div> </div><div><br></div><div>>David Stockhoff: Who built the mausoleum? Severian? Typhon? Ymar? Inire? Gene Wolfe? Was there ever a family who had those arms---one with actual women and children?<br></div><div><br>
</div><div style>This is a central question. I have no idea. If it was built by the Commonwealth as a sort of matter of course at the end of a different (failed) Severian's life to house his remains, then what is it doing in the necropolis when our Severian is a child? Again, I don't see why it would be there unless it was somehow dislocated in time, or time-travelers (those who walk the corridors of time that we are told on pg. 406 of Citadel manipulate Severian's second journey to the throne - I think this is Inire/hierodules, and possibly the undines as well) rebuilt it there. I think the mausoleum could have been put there by someone who intended Severian to find so that it would help shape his path and better prepare him for his trial so that he would bring the New Sun.</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:33 PM, Michael Thayer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.o.thayer@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.o.thayer@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">>David Stockhoff: <span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The mausoleum is the nexus of the various Severians, and</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">it is he himself he might see if he looks over his shoulder.</span><div>
<br></div><div>I don't disagree with this statement at all (in fact I'm very fond of it), and I certainly think you and I are on the same page (and not just literally page 12 of Shadow!) -- but isn't it a bit fuzzy? In what way -- in terms of plot mechanics -- is the mausoleum the nexus of the various Severians? </div>
<div><br></div><div>The assumption behind the statement is that there are five various Severians, one for each coffin, right? But surely these various instances of Severian do not walk the same time-strand/universe. Instead, they exist in alternate time-strands/parallel universes. We know this, textually, because we are expressly informed of at least two such alternate/parallel Severians -- "then those who walk the corridors walked back to the time [the first Severian] was young, and my own story . . . began" Citadel, 406. The mausoleum suggests strongly that there are five such Severians (we are told of two of the five (Citadel 406), just as we are told two of the five coffins are open/empty (Shadow 12)). But why would the mausoleum in the second/narrator Severian's necropolis house the five coffins for five alternate/parallel Severians if four of the five Severians do not exist in his universe/time-strand? Given the two alternate time-strand Severians we are told of, the two of five open coffins in Severian's mausoleum, the Botanical Gardens, Master Ash's Last House, and the numerous references to time in the mausoleum scenes (Shadow 12-13, 21-22), I think we should seriously consider the possibility that the mausoleum is dislocated in time and may be entered from all five alternate universes. I don't know if you meant it this literally, but, as you say, "the mausoleum is the nexus of the various Severians."</div>
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