<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I agree that cloning is not used simply because of declining population! That was never a point I tried to make. You'd have to be quite busy in the lab to out-breed the poor. The sultans weren't trying to breed an army when they visited the harem. You breed heirs and servants---family members, captains, people you can trust to hold important posts in your fiefdom. Pega was the maid of Pelagia, because Pelagia could trust her as a "half-sister." This replaces the European system of making the guy who holds your chamberpot a lord, with his duties passing on to his son.<br><br>I haven't quite put it all together yet. But here's a thought---if you are holding a noble's daughter, you are holding her DNA and her womb. How much is that worth to a noble? <br><br>Anyway, thanks for reinforcing that the exultants and the Autarch are at war. That's
why he has clone armies. And that's why his successors are Servants---because his servants are, unlike the royal servants of Europe but typically for sultans, non-noble. They can be trusted to serve him, and they are likely to be nearby when the time comes, and they will obey when the incomprehensible order is given.<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Lee Berman <severiansola@hotmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "urth@urth.net" <urth@urth.net> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 12, 2013
2:52 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> (urth) Thea's Identity<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br>>David Stockhoff: Didn't know the vats were Face Dancers!<br><br>Yeah, I can't remember if it book 5 or 6 of the Dune series but at <br>some point the Duncan Idaho clone remembers his "birth mother" she<br>being essentially a monstrous tube-fed uterus-body stump of a female <br>face dancer. Their race's ultimate secret shame and embarassment.<br><br>>As for that succession---as far as I can recall there is no evidence anyone knows <br>>about the central gimmick of the Autarchy except the Autarch himself and Father <br>>Inire, and I suppose Vodalus and whatsername. So the entire seraglio may be under <br>>the impression that their kids have a shot at the throne. Keeps 'em focused.<br><br>I think we are given enough circumstantial evidence to figure out the mechanism<br>of succession in The
Commonwealth. In one appendix, Wolfe specifically lists the<br>social classes- Exultants, Armigers, Optimates,"Servants of the Throne", <br>cacogens, the commonality and the religious.<br><br>From Cyriaca we learn that the Autarch and the Exultants are in direct opposition<br>to each other (hence the need for the hostage seraglio which includes Thecla). It<br>would appear that despite the provincial rulings of fiefdoms, exultants have no<br>shot at the throne themselves. All three autarchs we know something about (Severian,<br>Appian and Ymar) have been raised up from the "Servants of the Throne" caste. Since<br>Severian mentions mop maids (IIRC) and other such in his Autarchial memories, I take<br>the elevation of autarchial servants to be the case through all the history of the<br>Autarchy.<br><br>As David suggests above, Father Inire would seem to be involved in the process. In <br>fact, every time the Old Autarch meets with Severian, there seems to
be a possible <br>iteration of Father Inire hovering somewhere nearby- the cowled servitor, the uturuncu<br>shaman and a few more who are less obvious candidates. Given his longevity, surely<br>Inire is the Rasputin/Richelieu-ish power behind the throne and he who does the real <br>autarchial choosing. As Cyriaca suggests, it is the power of the cacogens who allow<br>the autarch to stay in power, keeping the power-hungry exultants at bay.<br><br>Interestingly, Cyriaca, the armagette, seems to know more about the power structure of <br>the Commonwealth than Vodalus who has focused all of his rebellion on the person of the <br>Autarch and doesn't seem to recognize the backing power of Inire and the cacogens at <br>all. Why would Cyriaca know so much more than Vodalus? I think the clear answer is that <br>she is getting information from her mysterious, ancient book-loving "uncle" whose <br>knowlege of Urth and Briah's cosmic history is rivalled only by
Malrubius. (further<br>circumstantial evidence suggest to me this "uncle" is in fact Father Inire, but that<br>would be another thread).<br><br>>Gerry Quinn: And that leaves aside the need for managed population decline in the face of <br>>the approaching ice. Most likely there are too many people, rather than too <br>>few.<br><br>I tend to agree with Gerry that underpopulation is not really the driving force behind <br>cloning on Urth. I think the most instructive answer is found in historical and mythological<br>allusion.<br><br>Perhaps it is is safe to say that such behaviors as incest, pedophilia and homosexuality <br>were tolerated in ancient Egyptian and Greek societies more than others because their <br>pharaoahs and kings and other leaders engaged in such behavior. Since some of these ancient<br>leaders were elevated to god status over the centuries, it is not surprising to find these<br>behaviors in the Egyptian and especially the
Greek pantheon of deities. Another odd aspect<br>found in these ancient gods was the potential for asexual reproduction, notably by Zeus, who<br>budded off Athena and Dionysus. But there are other examples.<br><br>Taking Gene Wolfe's statement that he considers pagan gods to be real, I think we find a<br>fictionalized version of the same thing going on in the Sun Series. If Urth is ruled by <br>giant beings who can bud off minature pieces of themselves, small wonder that the people of <br>Urth are conditioned to accept cloning behavior for themselves. <br>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net/" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br><br><br></div> </div>
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