<div dir="ltr">On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:26 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I agree that cloning is not used simply because of declining population! That was never a point I tried to make. You'd have to be quite busy in the lab to out-breed the poor. The sultans weren't trying to breed an army when they visited the harem. You breed heirs and servants---family members, captains, people you can trust to hold important posts in your fiefdom. </div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Maybe all the servants in the House (save Inire) are related to the Autarch and each other through some sort of semi-cloning technology.</div><div style><br></div><div style>Bonus points: the entire autarchial line is half-clones of Inire. It calls back (forward) to Wolfe's ideas about hybridization as expressed in the Long Sun (something about crossing lines of corn).</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Pega was the maid of Pelagia, because Pelagia could trust her as a "half-sister." This replaces the European system of making the guy who holds your chamberpot a lord, with his duties passing on to his son.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The servants have no acknowledged titles, but are royal through blood.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I haven't quite put it all together yet. But here's a thought---if you are holding a noble's daughter, you are holding her DNA and her womb. How much is that worth to a noble? <br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>And useful to the Autarch to prevent the problems attendant on inbreeding.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Anyway, thanks for reinforcing that the exultants and the Autarch are at war. That's
why he has clone armies. And that's why his successors are Servants---because his servants are, unlike the royal servants of Europe but typically for sultans, non-noble. They can be trusted to serve him, and they are likely to be nearby when the time comes, and they will obey when the incomprehensible order is given.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>And they keep the succession in the (genetic) family.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div><br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px"> <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Lee Berman <<a href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com" target="_blank">severiansola@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> "<a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 12, 2013
2:52 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> (urth) Thea's Identity<br> </font> </div> <div><br>>David Stockhoff: Didn't know the vats were Face Dancers!<br><br>Yeah, I can't remember if it book 5 or 6 of the Dune series but at <br>
some point the Duncan Idaho clone remembers his "birth mother" she<br>being essentially a monstrous tube-fed uterus-body stump of a female <br>face dancer. Their race's ultimate secret shame and embarassment.<br>
<br>>As for that succession---as far as I can recall there is no evidence anyone knows <br>>about the central gimmick of the Autarchy except the Autarch himself and Father <br>>Inire, and I suppose Vodalus and whatsername. So the entire seraglio may be under <br>
>the impression that their kids have a shot at the throne. Keeps 'em focused.<br><br>I think we are given enough circumstantial evidence to figure out the mechanism<br>of succession in The
Commonwealth. In one appendix, Wolfe specifically lists the<br>social classes- Exultants, Armigers, Optimates,"Servants of the Throne", <br>cacogens, the commonality and the religious.<br><br>From Cyriaca we learn that the Autarch and the Exultants are in direct opposition<br>
to each other (hence the need for the hostage seraglio which includes Thecla). It<br>would appear that despite the provincial rulings of fiefdoms, exultants have no<br>shot at the throne themselves. All three autarchs we know something about (Severian,<br>
Appian and Ymar) have been raised up from the "Servants of the Throne" caste. Since<br>Severian mentions mop maids (IIRC) and other such in his Autarchial memories, I take<br>the elevation of autarchial servants to be the case through all the history of the<br>
Autarchy.<br><br>As David suggests above, Father Inire would seem to be involved in the process. In <br>fact, every time the Old Autarch meets with Severian, there seems to
be a possible <br>iteration of Father Inire hovering somewhere nearby- the cowled servitor, the uturuncu<br>shaman and a few more who are less obvious candidates. Given his longevity, surely<br>Inire is the Rasputin/Richelieu-ish power behind the throne and he who does the real <br>
autarchial choosing. As Cyriaca suggests, it is the power of the cacogens who allow<br>the autarch to stay in power, keeping the power-hungry exultants at bay.<br><br>Interestingly, Cyriaca, the armagette, seems to know more about the power structure of <br>
the Commonwealth than Vodalus who has focused all of his rebellion on the person of the <br>Autarch and doesn't seem to recognize the backing power of Inire and the cacogens at <br>all. Why would Cyriaca know so much more than Vodalus? I think the clear answer is that <br>
she is getting information from her mysterious, ancient book-loving "uncle" whose <br>knowlege of Urth and Briah's cosmic history is rivalled only by
Malrubius. (further<br>circumstantial evidence suggest to me this "uncle" is in fact Father Inire, but that<br>would be another thread).<br><br>>Gerry Quinn: And that leaves aside the need for managed population decline in the face of <br>
>the approaching ice. Most likely there are too many people, rather than too <br>>few.<br><br>I tend to agree with Gerry that underpopulation is not really the driving force behind <br>cloning on Urth. I think the most instructive answer is found in historical and mythological<br>
allusion.<br><br>Perhaps it is is safe to say that such behaviors as incest, pedophilia and homosexuality <br>were tolerated in ancient Egyptian and Greek societies more than others because their <br>pharaoahs and kings and other leaders engaged in such behavior. Since some of these ancient<br>
leaders were elevated to god status over the centuries, it is not surprising to find these<br>behaviors in the Egyptian and especially the
Greek pantheon of deities. Another odd aspect<br>found in these ancient gods was the potential for asexual reproduction, notably by Zeus, who<br>budded off Athena and Dionysus. But there are other examples.<br><br>Taking Gene Wolfe's statement that he considers pagan gods to be real, I think we find a<br>
fictionalized version of the same thing going on in the Sun Series. If Urth is ruled by <br>giant beings who can bud off minature pieces of themselves, small wonder that the people of <br>Urth are conditioned to accept cloning behavior for themselves. <br>
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Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><span style="text-align:-webkit-auto;border-collapse:separate;font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><span style="color:rgb(66,66,59);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:19px">There may well be microbial life forms on Mars, yes. We may be polluting a pristine alien environment. But I say that, if they're there, </span><em style="color:rgb(66,66,59);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:19px">let them fight for it</em><span style="color:rgb(66,66,59);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:19px">. Let them go to war with the mighty water bears of Earth. I don't care any more. Space stations are crap. I want a castle on Mars.</span></span><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:'Times New Roman';text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:medium"><span style="color:rgb(66,66,59);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:19px"> - Warren Ellis</span></span></div>
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