<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I would suggest to you "The Germanization of Medieval Christianity." <div><br><div>The myth is that Catholic Christianity attacked the peaceful Germanic tribes, who practiced a highly developed, family-unit centric, complex polytheistic shamanistic/mystical religion, killing them to win souls for the kingdom and to steal the territory. Within a few generations, the Old Religion died out except in a few secret magical cadres that kept it alive, sometimes being burned as a witch, under hardcore Christian suppression through the hierarchy of the Church.<br><div>Undoubtably there was Christian war with the Vikings, but the idea that the Christians oppressed and forced conversion on all Germanic peoples is actually inherited from Nazi historiography, trying to convince people that either 1.) Jesus is a Jewish parasite, a mind disease (thanks to Nietzsche for giving them that one), or that 2.) Jesus was an Anti-Jewish Germanic Aryan spiritual genius (see <i>The Aryan Jesus</i> by Heschl, I think).</div><div>The fact is that the conversion of the Germanic tribes to Christianity was decided by a complicated mixture of economics, political and territorial wars, and cultural crises within the Viking religion. By the time that Christianity got there, all evidence points to the fact that only some ancient traditions of the Vikings were alive... most had faded. They were already obsessed with Christianity because of the massive amount of gold they had plundered from nearly defenseless monasteries, and were fascinated also with the Muslims, with whom they had a vibrant trade. The other Germanic peoples either converted because their king converted or by slow process of inculturation. However, the rest of the Germanic religious world was already in crisis to some extent and Christianity really caught on quick with the Franks, the Visigoths (although they were Arian at first) and was the biggest hit with the Celts and Angles, Saxons, and Jutes of the British Isles, because of the fantastic nature of the Old Testament, the implicit acclamation of kingship, the revivified connections with Rome & other parts of Europe, and other factors. The Vikings were harder to convert but that was not the reason for the wars. The wars were to strike at the plundering Vikings, conversion was an excuse to keep some of their land, and 'idol-worship' was suppressed. Magical practices, belief in dwarves and fairies, and strange rituals that have nothing to do with Christianity lasted until very late, and were only really stamped out by the enterprising nature of mercantilism and Protestantism that really exorcised anything Pagan. </div><div>But the myth is still a very powerful rhetoric within the pagan groups. Having been raised by strongly Calvinist and/or secular Lutheran families, they have a prejudice against Catholicism in particular, but Christianity (and religion, actually) in general.</div><div><br></div><div>R</div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><br><div><div>On Apr 10, 2013, at 1:45 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><br><div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ross Arlen Tieken <<a href="mailto:ross.a.tieken@gmail.com">ross.a.tieken@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:19 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: (urth) Thecla's "Identity"<br> </font> </div> <br>Wolfe is not a "traditional" Catholic because he does actually believe that other gods exist. The vegetarianism is complicated though--it is a mark of those who are particularly sensitive and sacrificial and is not expected for most. Remember Wolfe is from Texas. Vegetarians aren't "normal" here (in Texas), but those who have religious reasons to do so receive high respect.<br>Also, I am a scholar of Neo-Paganism, and did some anthropological work in England with them for about six weeks. Their attitudes are not as simple as you recount them here; they are far more modern and dependent on modern attitudes, and far more influenced by Golden Dawn practices, which is sort of a hyper-modern ceremonial magic. On the other hand, there are those who are trying to resuscitate Anglo-Saxon or Germanic paganism, what they call Theodish beliefs or Heathenry. Their magical practice comes from casting the Runes, known as Asatru. But this group continues to attract members that are crypto-Nazi, white power, and weird Blavatskian root-race occultists. Now most of those who are a part of Heathenry are not those people, and they are still tainted with the ahistorical myth of the Christian Oppression of the Vikings, but in general they actually have a lot in common with normal folk Catholicism. Wolfe feels attracted to these people I am sure, as I did, but likely wished for something a little more historically grounded. In that way, he (and I) are not "traditional" Catholics, but that does not mean that we are outside orthodoxy. Catholicism subscribes to what used to be pagan ideas and attitudes; this is both acknowledged and embraced by the modern Church (having experienced the rebirth of early Church history and patristics in the 1920's and 30's.<br><br>R<br>Ross, I'm curious about this:<br> <br> ahistorical myth of the Christian Oppression of the Vikings<br> <div><br> <span></span></div> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br> <span></span></div> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>I always heard it the other way around---I don't know this myth.<br></span></div> <br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net">http://www.urth.net</a></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></body></html>