<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>See, I always took the "symbols invented us" line to do more with basic human instincts (ie. faith, love, sin, greed, the vices and virtues, etc.).</div><div><br></div><div>Take the token given to a soldier symbolizing their initiation into an army for instance. Is the coin not just a symbol of war? And isn't war/fighting something we as humans are born with? And even after birth, aren't we conditioned by these human tendencies?</div><div><br></div><div>I think the word "symbol" becomes easier to reconcile in this context when it is clear what the symbol in fact symbolizes in the first place. Then we simply have to accept the fact that humans did not invent those source things (god, hate, love, war, sex, etc.). Those things are what make us human.<br><br>...ryan<div><br></div><div>Sent from my iPhone</div></div><div><br>On Nov 26, 2012, at 8:16 PM, Bill Burgess <<a href="mailto:whburth@gmail.com">whburth@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>The medium is the message?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Adam Thornton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:athornton@gmail.com" target="_blank">athornton@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I think maybe there's a third principle to add to my Two Keys To Wolfe, but I think they're all articulations of the same ur-theme, which I haven't found a nice concise aphorism. I'll put the new one first:<br>
<br>1) Symbols are Real<br>2) You Are What You Eat<br>3) You Become What You Imitate<br><br>1 and 3 are the same thing in different guises, I think, and 2 is a special case of 3, maybe.<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Daniel Petersen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com" target="_blank">danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div>We need the illusion(?) of free<br>will to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly religious must<br>somehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the creation of an<br>
omniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would irrevocably lead<br>
to every single micro-choice we end up making in life.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div><div>Well, many theologies don't at all think it follows from a doctrine of God (e.g. omniscience and omnipotence) that every 'micro-choice' of creatures is thereby determined and fixed without reference to the subject making his or her own meaningful and actual choice. As I say, I suspect Wolfe is giving space for these variant theologies to wrestle in the Solar Cycle rather than simply embodying one or the other. (As does Catholic teaching in general, I believe.) </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In terms of symbology, the coin, and I'm pretty sure other moments, point fairly strongly in the direction of some kind of theological determinism (compatibilist). The characterisations, as has been suggested, perhaps point in a more theologically libertarian freewill direction. What I'm wondering is whether there are <em>symbols</em> in the work that image forth libertarian notions. Anyone?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>-DOJP<br><br></div><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Lee Berman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com" target="_blank">severiansola@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><br><br>>Bill Burgess: I'd find it a little surprising that anyone would think Severian was not<br>>freely making the decisions which lead him on his path.<br>
<br>I'm thinking Daniel Petersen's comment may have been inspired by Severian's/Wolfe's own<br>line that "We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their<br>creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.".<br>
<br>This would appear to fly in the face of "free will". How can we fully have it if "symbols"<br>can control and define our choices?<br><br>I think this adds religious philosophical depth to BotNS. We need the illusion(?) of free<br>
will to function as a human being on a day by day basis. But the devoutly religious must<br>somehow reconcile this with the irrational awareness that we are the creation of an<br>omniscient and omnipotent God who created the universe knowing it would irrevocably lead<br>
to every single micro-choice we end up making in life.<br><br>The quote above is related to Severian's treasuring of the (false) coin he received from<br>Vodalus and his lack of awareness that accepting the coin led to an attachment to Vodalus<br>
and the values he fought for, which affected his choice to disobey his guild in regard to<br>Vodalus' follower, Thecla and many other choices after that.<br><br>(it does make me wonder what new values Gene Wolfe found himself adopting and what choices<br>
he ended up making based on his acceptance of symbols such as a US military uniform and gun)<br><br>I wonder if this all relates in some way to the ring Horn chooses to wear in Short Sun. I think<br>we readers are meant to understand it provides a portal for god-like beings to possess him or<br>
influence his choices. But for Horn, the ring might seem only to have symbolic meaning. Perhaps<br>a practical example of how symbols might shape us when they represent powerful forces beyond our<br>understanding.<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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