<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>A few things:<br></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>1) The sun was dying out (whether "naturally" or because of the Hieros), so humanity was up a creek, anyway. From a broad perspective, the flood's "genocide" also kept humanity on Urth/Ushas going, creating (if not exactly saving) more lives. Not very "nice" a way to do it, but still...</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>2) Renewing the sun isn't a spiritual salvation like Christ's sacrifice. Allegorically, sure. But I think it's important to be careful where we're talking allegory and where we're talking plot. They won't always match up. In the *plot*, "God"/The Outsider doesn't bring the new sun, the Hieros do. Sure, they may be agents of the Outsider, operating in his spirit, etc. But the allegorical "salvation" and the plot
"salvation" aren't the same thing and won't look the same. So of course it looks bad for "God" to perform genocide (the Old Testament notwithstanding), but New Sun doesn't operate on the same narrative terms as the OT: God is not a direct actor in the story in the same way that he is in the Bible.</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>3) "Salvation" can look different on those two levels. Obviously, life just keeps going on Ushas, although in a different (and hopefully better) form. But it isn't a heaven where all is well and good. It may be a kind of evolution, but even if it's an allegory of salvation, the plot won't exactly play out as if everybody now lives in heaven.f</span></div><div><br></div><div>I'm not saying you can't still draw "spiritual" conclusions about all of this. But they're going to be more indirect, I think, than "this is Wolfe's final theological statement on X." For example: Urth continues, and it's a better place,
but it's not a perfect "Christian" world, right? There's still something like idol worship of Severian, etc. But at least it's closer, right? I mean, the story of Severian is certainly closer to the gospel than Typhon's story, say. So it's like steps toward salvation where the central "true" story gradually becomes more and better understood/told/remembered/lived. Even if his Catholicism is as strict as you can imagine, I don't see any reason to think that he had to write a story that was completely and totally consistent with or even a retelling of orthodoxy or scripture. I forget who it was that brought up Tolkien's notion of "sub creation" (Dan'l?). And even there, authors have plenty of room to borrow themes and then move away from them: Gandalf's resurrection, say. A "Christ-like" moment? Absolutely. But is Middle Earth "saved" after that? Not at all. It mirrors that event and draws a lot of significance from its allegorical meaning, but the plot
doesn't therefore have to follow the same rules or even move to the same conclusions.</div><div><br></div><div>And now I'm repeating myself, so I'll stop.<br><span></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Lee Berman <severiansola@hotmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> urth@urth.net <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:41 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> (urth) Lupiverse(es)<br> </font> </div> <br>
<br><br>>Jeff Wilson: I'm not talking about grimly necessary custodial genocide on <br>>the part of impartial higher beings with the ability to see the true <br>>alternatives to their actions, or the natural struggle for limited resources <br>>that is common to most living things, I mean atrocities, the gratuitous <br>>slaughter, mortification, rape, and other heinous cruelties human beings <br>>visit on each other for their own peace of mind, or entertainment, or <br>>sense of entitlement, or any of the other beknighted steps of Maslow's <br>>pyramid.<br> <br>I still think people are significantly kinder and more peaceful across the<br>world now than they were 5000 years ago.<br> <br>Moreover Jeff, I think your expressed outrage is an example of this. If it<br>were 5000 years ago and you became aware of a famine in China or N. Korea<br>you wouldn't attribute it to cruelty and man's inhumanity to man. You'd<br>attribute the famine
to your God and worship His power and ability to smite <br>your enemies. You'd write a Holy Book about it.<br> <br>Most people just don't glory in the same things they gloried in their God<br>5000 years ago. It seems like a good thing to me, though I know some will<br>disagree.<br> <br>>Duck season!<br> <br>Wabbit season! Heh. Though it might be unfair to non-Americans to reference <br>the classic Bugs Bunny/Daffy Duck argument on which hunting season it is. <br>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net<br><br><br> </div> </div> </div></body></html>