I think I will have to reread the portion where Able drinks the Aelf blood; it is interesting that it works "both ways", and if it is a perversion for humans to worship the Aelf since they are from a higher world, it seems like it would also be a perversion of some kind for them to drink Aelf blood (continuing this thought that blood drinking = blood sacrifice). It makes sense for the blood of the gods (humans) to having healing and salvific powers for their worshipers (Aelf) but not the other way around.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com">danldo@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it somehow salvific.<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kierkegaurdian@gmail.com" target="_blank">kierkegaurdian@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>"But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given voluntarily."<br>
<br></div>
Interesting point. I also seem to remember Baki being healed in <i>The Wizard</i> (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood.<div><div><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danldo@gmail.com" target="_blank">danldo@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given voluntarily.<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kierkegaurdian@gmail.com" target="_blank">kierkegaurdian@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>"But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end"<br>
<br></div>Is the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until she becomes "real"? The drinking of blood for power / healing / transformation showed up several times earlier, I remember. When Able is wounded in <i>The Knight</i> he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't remember which) blood to become healed. This sort of "blood sacrifice" that pops up a few times is less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan transference of power; blood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly common theme in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. The fact that the blood of <i>several</i> characters seems to have some type of inherent power (the Ael and Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions (where both human and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice). <br>
<div><div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com" target="_blank">danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly about some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction. The interview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.<div>
<br></div><div><a href="http://mysite.verizon.net/%7Evze2tmhh/gwjbj.html" target="_blank">http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html</a> </div><div><br></div><div>Or you can go straight to the religion bit here:</div>
<div><br></div><div>
<a href="http://mysite.verizon.net/%7Evze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig" target="_blank">http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig</a> </div><div><div><br></div><div> I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that "he" struck me as a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the "gods" of other realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world "up" or "down", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a "two-world jump" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the world second from the top.
</div><div><br></div></div><div>Yeah, I noticed this too. In that sense, this work seemed more nearly Gnostic than any other. I wondered if he was being even more obliquely ironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant from the Most High). But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian redemption is hinted at.</div>
<div><br></div><div>-DOJP<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kierkegaurdian@gmail.com" target="_blank">kierkegaurdian@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. <img src="cid:330@goomoji.gmail" goomoji="330" style="margin: 0pt 0.2ex; vertical-align: middle;"> Can anyone link to an interview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his writing? I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly focused on his philosophies of writing, etc. Also, if I can bring it back to <i>The Wizard</i> for a minute, I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that "he" struck me as a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the "gods" of other realms interact with the worlds below them. It seems that it is easy to go a world "up" or "down", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a "two-world jump" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the world second from the top. Can anyone refresh my memory of where Parka is from? Was she an entity of Elysion, or Kleos?<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com" target="_blank">danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)<div><br></div><div>The *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could not possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged) doctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the Canaanites. Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a doctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from themes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost' in idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery. Sure, Wolfe needs the NT development of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable divine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people out of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah. Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is progressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox Christian understanding.) That's my thesis. Seeing the God of the OT merely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's fiction, I think. Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding. I, at least, do not think he is. (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)</div>
<div><br></div><div>-DOJP<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/3/8 António Pedro Marques <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:entonio@gmail.com" target="_blank">entonio@gmail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and<br>
whatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of texts (...)<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go around all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate the Canaanites.<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Urth Mailing List<br>
To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Urth Mailing List<br>
To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Urth Mailing List<br>
To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Urth Mailing List<br>
To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Urth Mailing List<br>
To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><span><font color="#888888">-- <br>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<br>
</font></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Urth Mailing List<br>
To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Urth Mailing List<br>
To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes<br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Urth Mailing List<br>
To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br>