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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=severiansola@hotmail.com
href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com">Lee Berman</A> </DIV>
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> Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly
the Christian<BR></DIV>
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allusions are primary.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
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<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Perhaps
we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more about who we
are<BR></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">than
what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and Christianity are
<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">both
there. So which is more important?</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">What
does “more important” mean here? They are both there and they both have
their place. It’s like asking whether spaceships are more or less
important to the story than planets.</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Allusions
don’t mean much in themselves; they are pointers to a theme. It is the
theme that is important, either for itself or for its place in the story.
</DIV></DIV>
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style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">The
pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see it, the
references<BR></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">to
Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ himself. There
are <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">roods
and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of the eucharist
and <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">sermons
and confessions and so on.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">If
the trappings exist, presumably they have been co-opted by the state religion,
but existed before that in their original form. The Sign of Addition
appears to be an allusion to the Sign of the Cross. If so, in Silk’s
universe there must at one time have been a cross that was central to events
that people found noteworthy, no? </DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV>
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</DIV>There is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So why do you think Wolfe put Jesus in? To confuse people?
There was nothing that obliged him to put in the reference. Or if he
really did want to say that Jesus in Silk’s universe was not Christ, he could
have put some hint in here. (But then why does the Outsider show him to
Silk?)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>I see no christian salvation<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">offered
by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The Outsider.
All these <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">guys
seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means surviving.
Moving <BR></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">to
a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like that
<BR><BR>Wolfe is writing science fiction, set in the material universe.
The material salvation reflects the more spiritual themes. What do you
want, _The Last Battle_ with inhumi instead of Calormen</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">And
that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And perhaps the
difference <BR></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">between
the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New Testament God. Moses
led<BR></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">the
chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new plane of
existence.<BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">He
was also big on parables.<BR> <BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Wolfe
talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe than our own
and I<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">think
this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a futuristic
gnostic<BR></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">monster
and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has already
appeared.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Once
Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an option. An
option <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; TEXT-DECORATION: ">>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">seemingly
unavailable to anyone in Briah. </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">He
said he was thinking about cosmic cycles, and he does suggest that the Solar
cycle takes place some time in such a series. It’s part of the story, in
fact. It’s by no means obvious whether Urth exists in a past, future or
current iteration. Indeed, either successive iterations are very similar,
or it must be our own. And for that matter it does not seem all that much
more horrible than ours, at least if we set aside some of the more baroque
touches such as the alzabo, which is certainly a horrible monster but exists
because Urth is a SF world rather than an especially horrible one. There
are as many wonders as there are monsters. Urth’s entropic condition has
historic reasons, and at the end it is cured, though not without catastrophic
convulsions. </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">I
can see the interpretation you are proposing, and it is an interesting idea -
but I don’t see where Wolfe has put in reasons for us to believe
it. </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">-
Gerry Quinn</DIV></DIV>
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