Thanks for your generous interpretation of my comments, Lee. I actually am well known among family and friends as being the aggro one at times - I have to fight hard with myself to be civilised in debate, as I'm naturally a passionate, opinionated, snarky person (half the time). Some nasty scrap and scrape in a forum like this is indeed a very good and healthy and enjoyable thing. I have zero problem with some feisty intellectual punch-ups happening here. It's when the insults start to sound pretty dark and vitriolic that I worry it's no longer 'useful' and certainly not fun. I may well have misinterpreted, for example, Stockhoff calling Quinn and 'illiterate know-nothing' and this is good debating-buddy language they use with each other all the time (I have friends I argue with like that - sometimes it crosses the line and we swear off each other for a while, then make up and go at it again).<div>
<br></div><div>Anyway, at least as much as that, I have problems with a more intellectual obstinacy and obnoxiousness I sometimes see evident here. It's unfortunate, Lee, that I often have to just skim over or skip the (usually lengthy) comments made by you and Gerry. But that's what I do rather than calling for you guys to be debarred. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Two final notes: I seriously doubt letting off steam on the internet prevents it happening in real life. I imagine there are complex studies into these kinds of notions that show the whole thing is dubiously unpredictable. But that's merely an aside. </div>
<div><br></div><div>The second thing is that I feel fairly uncomfortable with the idea of people having 'goals' for this list. What in the world? (Like my sanitary version of wtf?) The list has a simple and stated purpose: to discuss Wolfe's works. Let's leave it at that and be busy with it - not trying to manipulate others and the 'community' toward further ends we've concocted. That's just weird. Not in the good 'weird fiction' way. It's... creepy.</div>
<div><br></div><div>-DOJP<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Lee Berman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com">severiansola@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
>Daniel Petersen: I simply don't understand you very well, Lee, and Quinn I feel I do<br>
>understand to some degree but find his seeming obstinacy about....<br>
<br>
You seem like a gentle, considerate soul Daniel, which I think is great. But do you<br>
believe in the adage, "it takes one to know one"? Gerry and I understand each other very well.<br>
I recognize him as a social manipulator and his retort to that is to accuse me of the same.<br>
Gerry, in his desire to win every debate, cannot admit to this shortcoming but I appreciate<br>
his honesty in not trying to deny his own mechinations.<br>
<br>
I freely admit to it. My explicitly stated goal in rejoining this list a couple years ago<br>
was to restore a sense of freedom of expression, the lack of which had previously stifled the<br>
list for a number of years. I have employed various strategems to achieve this goal. Have I<br>
suceeded at all?<br>
<br>
I think your confusion about Gerry is that you underestimate and oversimplify him. You wonder<br>
why he employs certain strategies when they seem counterproductive to what he is trying to<br>
achieve. But, as I said, I don't consider him an object of pity. Is it possible Gerry is<br>
getting exactly what he wants from this list? Why else would he continue his very consistent<br>
pattern of communication? Gerry also has goals for this list. What are they? (I'll let him<br>
answer) Has he succeeded?<br>
<br>
>Nor do I think my comments betrayed that I was 'missing something', especially<br>
>not 'a recognition of human diversity'. I am (they are) calling for just such recognition and<br>
>celebration of human diversity - belligerence and'over-stubbornness' do not facilitate this.<br>
<br>
I think I understand your point of view Daniel. It is a wonderful one. Belligerence and pig-head<br>
stubborness do cause a lot of problems in this world and it might be a better place without them.<br>
No fighting, no killing, no hate.<br>
<br>
But the truth is, if we managed to eliminate those things, the world would be a less diverse place.<br>
Currently, aggression IS a part of the human experience and a pervasive, influential one at that.<br>
Much of my professional experience has been in what some might call the "dregs" of society and I<br>
have thus been quite familiarized with the dark side of human nature.<br>
<br>
Though I've always preached a message of peace and understanding in my work, I also came to know<br>
that there are some people who are inherently aggressive. You simply cannot reach such people<br>
with a message of peace and understanding. It doesn't register. So what should we do?<br>
<br>
The answer is what societies throughout history have done with such people. Channel the aggression<br>
toward productive or at least harmless activities. Sports and other competitions are a good<br>
example.<br>
<br>
So, I hope you can see what I'm saying. For some people, preaching the use of respectful, considerate<br>
language here is a lost cause. Instead, embrace the conflict. Encourage the expression of hostility<br>
in a place like this instead of in the real world. Not only does the energy of competition drive<br>
some people to do intense scholastic research they might not otherwise do; it just might be making<br>
the real world a more peaceful place by reducing domestic violence, pub fights and perhaps even war.<br>
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>