I tend to think of Robert Howard and Tolkien as two differing and interesting streams that find their mutual source in Dunsany (at least in so far as each of the former embody modern S&S). Again, it's as if these two streams reunite into one at Wolfe. (You can also do this sort of 'flow chart' from Dunsany with Lovecraft and Tolkien as the two streams reunited in Wolfe - this time in relation to horror.)<div>
<br></div><div>-DOJP<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 5:23 PM, David Stockhoff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
And Dunsany and Wilde.<div class="im"><br>
<br>
On 12/16/2011 12:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
Yes, and there is plenty of "high" fantasy that precedes JRRT also --<br>
notably William Morris.<br>
<br>
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Larry Miller<<a href="mailto:decanus1284@gmail.com" target="_blank">decanus1284@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
Dont forget that sword and sorcery also has roots in the planetary<br>
romances of burroughs who we know Wolfe was aware of. There was also<br>
the Jirel of Joiry and the Zothique stories that are the earliest<br>
sword and sorcery tales. Or the Worm Ouroborous. They all predate<br>
Tolkien. And Conan being a cheap comic book derivative? Come on!<br>
<br>
On 12/16/11, Lee Berman<<a href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com" target="_blank">severiansola@hotmail.<u></u>com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: You are absolutely correct, I meant "religious<br>
morality" and should<br>
have said so explicitly.<br>
</blockquote>
Ah, well, not really. I understood but I'll confess that I just wanted an<br>
excuse to<br>
further discuss Tolkien with someone who knows more than I do about the<br>
subject. :- )<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Antonio Pedro Marques: The discussion was about what it looked like on the<br>
_surface_. If<br>
you only find out at the end of the story that a character seems to fit a<br>
fairy tale,<br>
then the fairytaleness isn't really part of the scenery, is it?<br>
</blockquote>
Scenery! That's an interesting point. For me, it was fairly early in BotNS<br></div>
that the S& S/<div class="im"><br>
fairy tale aspects hit me. What came later (much later) was the recognition<br>
of real religious<br>
content in the story, albeit with an intensely gnostic flavor.<br>
<br>
For years I had wondered why Wolfe put "gnostic symbols" in the Witches<br>
Tower. The problem<br>
was my own limited knowledge of gnosticism. The impact of Alexander's brief<br>
but mighty<br>
empire on all levels of Western culture can't be ignored, including<br>
religion. Our legends of<br>
witches, vampires, manbeasts shapeshifting gods, monsters etc. can be traced<br>
back to that time<br>
period, in that part of the world.<br>
<br>
But anyway, does the fact that my realization of the religious aspect of<br>
BotNS came later mean<br>
it is not a religious story? Or even that religious trappings are not part<br>
of the scenery?<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Maybe for me s&s is a more restricted thing than for others. I think of<br>
Conan the Barbarian<br>
rather than LotR as the prototype. I'm not even sure I find LotR all that<br>
s&s, given the serious<br>
'historical' feeling I get from it, nor the Hobbit, given its (deceivingly)<br>
children's-tale style.<br>
</blockquote>
Great observation and recognition Antonio. Perhaps I am not alone in having<br>
assumed that LotR was<br></div>
more of a prototype or archetype of S& S while Conan is more of a cheap<div><div class="h5"><br>
comic book derivative.<br>
A cultural bias? Conan (like Tarzan) is a European character created by an<br>
American, while LotR seems<br>
somehow more authentic and refined- high brow British characters created by<br>
an Englishman.<br>
<br>
But, a check online about Robert Howard, the creator of Conan (and who<br>
pre-dates Tolkien), produces<br>
this blurb:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
With Conan and his other heroes, Howard created the genre now known as<br>
sword and sorcery, spawning<br>
a wide swath of imitators and giving him an influence in the fantasy field<br>
rivaled only by J. R. R.<br>
Tolkien and Tolkien's similarly inspired creation of high fantasy.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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