<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Yeah, I think that's fair to say. Tolkien does get called "high" fantasy and s&s is a term more often associated with the pulps.<br></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Like all these terms, though, they really only work as reliable categories in the abstract or with very early examples. But I think where they are useful is in looking at how people (like Wolfe) challenge them. You say, for example, that Wolfe is in between them, and I think he is, too. But it's important to say how/why: his surface can often look like s&s (a gothic dude with a big sword wandering the countryside) but it serves the purposes of "high" fantasy (he's on a quest to save the earth, he encounters allegorical figures, etc.). And what that looks like in the end when you discover that "fantasy" is a thin veil over a "sf"
story that's might also be a veil over a religious story/allegory/"fantasy"/gospel (?), then you're in another realm altogether. But you get there by moving through the genres and playing them off against each other.<br></span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>And it works with other people, too: is George R.R. Martin and those like him (Steve Erikson, Glen Cook, Joe Abercrombie, etc.) "high" or "low"? They're not just s&s because their doing a more "cinema verite" thing, and the scale of their world-creation often reaches for the "Tolkienesque." But the thematic approach takes the violent world of s&s and places it in the realm of politics and even religion/philosophy. These are worlds where politics is "real politik" and where no one, not even the supposedly "idealistic" characters, are really any better than Conan. There are no Gandalfs or figures of Good and Evil in the sky to provide the world a compass. So you get what often
looks like the surface of high fantasy (huge empires with long histories and complicated mythologies), but the ultimate impact is like taking Conan seriously as a nihilistic philosopher. :)</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>In other words, I think generic categories are necessary and useful. But they're necessary and useful as *jumping off points*, not as conclusions about a piece of work.<br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Daniel Petersen <danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Craig Brewer <cnbrewer@yahoo.com>; The Urth Mailing List <urth@lists.urth.net> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 16, 2011 9:03 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: (urth) Gummed-Up Works or Got Lives?<br> </font> <br>
<div id="yiv295491929">Good points again, Craig. But I wonder if Tolkien is to some degree High Brow Sword & Sorcery, and Conan and the like are Low Brow Heroic Fantasy? Wolfe, would again perhaps fall between these.<div><br></div><div>-DOJP<br>
<br><div class="yiv295491929gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Craig Brewer <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com">cnbrewer@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv295491929gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><div>
Lee wrote:<br>>Great observation and recognition Antonio. Perhaps I am not alone in having assumed that LotR was<br></div><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div>>more of a prototype or archetype of S & S while Conan is more of a cheap comic book derivative.<br>>A cultural bias? Conan (like Tarzan) is a European character created by an American, while LotR seems<br>
>somehow more authentic and refined- high brow British characters created by an Englishman.<br> <br></div>To me, the generic markers of "s&s" vs. "Tolkienesque" usually break down like this:<br>
<br>s&s - adventure tales where action and "marvels" are what drives the story. (The magazine _The Black Gate_ is trying to revive this
right now.)<br>Tolkienesque - fantasy that tries to inspire a sense of scope and "history" and is infused with moralisms ("good vs. evil," maturation and "coming of age" stories, religious/mythic allegory, etc.)<br>
<br>Some people certainly try to imply markers of quality in the definitions, but I've heard both terms used as praise and derision. I don't think it's integral to the terms.<br> </div> </div> </div></div><br>
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