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On 11/13/2011 7:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
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<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="crushtv@gmail.com"
href="mailto:crushtv@gmail.com">James Wynn</a> </div>
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<div>>
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Quinn wrote:<br>
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Answered in my previous post. <br>
> The rising Sun *is* in a real sense visible
in the poem. Unlike Orion.</div>
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<div>> Just to clarify our terms. "In a real sense" means
"not". </div>
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<div>So you don’t agree that it’s possible to see something
in a mirror, or in general by its reflection? <br>
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The sky is not a reflection. You are imagining a mirror, and a
refection, all your own. You are creating your own poem here. <br>
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<div style="DISPLAY: inline">> When have I ever
objected to metaphor? What I look for, though,
are </div>
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<div style="DISPLAY: inline">> metaphors that are
actually present, like the noose of light, which
is </div>
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<div style="DISPLAY: inline">> self-evidently
thrown by the Sun.<br>
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<div>> In classical cosmology, the Sun is the god that
*rules* the day. It's doesn't </div>
<div>> cause it. That is why we can have a separate god
that personifies "the Dawn" </div>
<div>> and why Khayyam can speak of Morning throwing a
stone. The Sun is as</div>
<div>> incidental (given the reference to Morning) as
any other celestial object.</div>
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<div><Shrug> We’re discussing Fitzgerald’s poem, not
classical cosmology.<br>
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Eos is not such a terrible interpretation. Unlike
Orion, I think a reasonable </div>
<div>> case could be made. Nevertheless, the Sun
imagery seems much stronger. </div>
<div>> If Fitzgerald had written, say, “bright
fingers grasp the turret”, I’d go with Eos. </div>
<div>> But he’s making up his own metaphor, and
it’s a better one IMO.<br>
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<div><br>
> Are you saying that because the Iliad speaks of the
Dawn's "rosy fingers"? Now</div>
<div>> you are using knowledge of classical literature
to buttress your interpretation. </div>
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<div>Yes, because the well-known association is there,
unlike the case in the poem where were are talking about a
noose. The noose is apparently a new metaphor dreamt up
by Fitzgerald; it has no classical associations that I
know of.</div>
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<div>> But that is totally legitimate because YOU are
doing it. I don't recall anywhere </div>
<div>> that the sun is associate with nooses, ropes, or
lariats. (Sun as cowboy?)</div>
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<div>It’s not – I interpret the poem on its own terms. If
the poem had referred to the Huntsman’s starry sword, I’d
have no hesitation in saying the Huntsman is Orion. But
he’s the Huntsman of the East, and he throws a noose of
sunlight, so he’s obviously the rising Sun.</div>
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<div>It’s not rocket science.</div>
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<br>
o...m...g.<br>
<br>
So, for literature written at any time in history, it is a
legitimate classical reference if Gerry knows about it. Gerry
already knows every classical reference that matters. The ones he
knows are overridingly important. The ones he doesn't know, he's not
going to learn because that would be pointless. AND it is a
legitimate reference if it suddenly occurs to Gerry at the time. All
other references "lesser-legitimate". <br>
Cool. Glad we've nailed that down at last.<br>
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