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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=severiansola@hotmail.com
href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com">Lee Berman</A>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><BR>> > > I think it is a goosechase to
think there is more than one ship which <BR>> > > becomes lost in the
folds of time. The text hints there is only one and<BR>> > > I take the
hint.<BR><BR>> >Gerry Quinn: </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">> > Where is this ‘hint’? The text
TELLS us quite clearly that there were many:<BR>> >"He came to sell his
clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships that sailed <BR>>
>beyond the world's rim long ago...He said his ships—all those ships—became
lost in the <BR>> >blackness between the suns, where the years do not
turn. Lost so that even Time cannot <BR>> >find them."<BR> <BR>>
It has been mentioned a few times recently that there is another passage which
suggests<BR>> all those ships might be one Ship. Why would WOlfe mention this
possibility? </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">That is said by Sidero. I think that
reference is specifically intended to mean that there is no other Ship of the
same kind as Tzadkiel’s. Quite clearly, there are many other ships.
For example, Typhon had ships at his disposal that had interstellar capability.
</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">> Again the<BR>> identity problem. Are
Ships crewed by the same people in different folds of time all<BR>> different
Ships or are they the same one?</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">I don’t know what you mean by folds of time
here.</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"><BR>> >There’s also Jonas’s crashed
ship. Unless you think that Tzadkiel is going to crash on Urth <BR>>
>some time in his future and Urth’s past. Because he expects to find a
port, and it is gone <BR>> >(that’s why they crashed). There’s only one
Ship. But there are lots of ships.<BR><BR>> You are being deliberately
argumentative and sloppy at that. Obviously Jonas' crashed ship<BR>> was a
lander not The Ship. Or are you suggesting the lander has the capability to
become<BR>> lost in the folds of time? </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">Why would they have sent a lander without
communicating with the (no-longer existent) port? And where is it ever
suggested that Tzadkiel gets lost in time? It was the old, human-launched
ships that </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">got lost. "We crashed. It had been so long,
on Urth, that there was no port when we returned, no dock.” </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">And Jonas gives no indication that it was not the
Fortunate Cloud that crashed.</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">The Ship has landers that don’t need a
port.</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"><BR>> Anyway Gerry, you say exactly what I've
been saying. There are many ships but there is <BR>> only one Ship. Isn't
Tzadkiel's divine presence the defining factor in making it The Ship? <BR>>
Or do you think just any old guy could be Captain of these Ships? There is only
one other <BR>> arch-angel mentioned in the text: Gabriel in Dr. Talos'
Play.<BR>> <BR>> Do you think Gabriel is captain of his own Ship? Is
there also unmentioned Captain Michael <BR>> and Captain Raphael and Captain
Uriel, etc? From the text I gather there is one Ship and<BR>> one Captain.
What would be the purpose of multiple Ships going to Yesod? Nothing in the
<BR>> text that I can see.</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">I don’t see your point. Neither Jonas nor
Hethor mention sojourns in Yesod, so the fact of there being only one Ship says
nothing about whether they were on it.</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"><BR>> FWIW, there was surely some
interstellar trade going on during the earlier Empire of Urth<BR>> but I
think most of the galaxy/universe was colonized by Whorls. I think this is
Wolfe's<BR>> way of explaining why some humans went out and evolved so
drastically into other beings. <BR>> They were on one-way ships and remained
in isolation from Urth for a long time. </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">Typhon’s interstellar empire was not made by
Whorls. Whorls ARE good for colonisation because they are big enough to
carry tens of millions of passengers. If anything, that should result in
fewer evolutionary changes among the colonists.</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">Of course Wolfe is happy to allow for human
evolution, but there seems no reason to think that humasns evolved into cacogens
any more than to think wolves evolved into alzabo (although the story of Little
Red Riding Hood at least indicates that there could be some evolutionary
pressure towards the latter).</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">- Gerry Quinn</DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black"> </DIV>
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