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Oops! Wrong direction, Craig.<br>
<br>
Although, that Concept of the Mind sounds interesting, so I'm just
lucky that way I guess.<br>
<br>
On 2/11/2011 10:30 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:511300.99558.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
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<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
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<div>Lane,<br>
<br>
I'll write off line so as not to bore the rest with non-Wolfe
stuff. But I almost wrote my dissertation on the relationship
between Spinoza and Milton's materialism, with a lot of
reference to other early modern materialists. But I found out
that a couple of others were doing the same thing. There's a
fascinating book by one of my advisors, though, about Milton's
philosophical relation to other "materialist" debates of the
time: Stephen Fallon's _Milton Among the Philosophers: Poetry
and Materialism in 17th Century England.<br>
<br>
And, years ago, I had to teach a course on Philosophy of Mind.
I had the same suspicions about Kim as you said. And speaking
of Phil of Mind, there's no better book to enrage
undergraduates than Ryle's _Concept of Mind_. It provides such
a succinct conceptual and argumentative structure for
responding to any and every objection that it drives them
crazy when they can't get out of its circle. Been awhile since
I've thought about that book, so thanks for making me free
associate a bit!<br>
<br>
On Wolfe, though, I love this:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;"><br>
>> The sense of redemption or of reconciliation of
matter with spirit is then a heroic process that runs counter
to the natural inclinations of things.<br>
<br>
That actually makes a fair bit of sense and is worth
rethinking what's going on in New Sun, I think. It's also very
Miltonic, so automatically like it. :)<br>
<br>
Thanks for the great post!<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<br>
<br>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Lane Haygood <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lhaygood@gmail.com"><lhaygood@gmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The
Urth Mailing List <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><urth@lists.urth.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri,
February 11, 2011 10:17:38 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: (urth) Wolfe and Materialism<br>
</font><br>
<div>The modern usage of materialist as ontological
naturalist/physicalist is an unfortunate hangover of a
terminology shift. Two hundred years ago people that
believed only in physical things would be called
materialists because we did not have any idea about atomic
science. Now we call them physicalists because "matter"
seems so inadequate, however they mean the same thing
(unless one talks to Jaegwon Kim, who is really a dualist
but too scared to admit it).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I wouldn't even call Milton's position materialism, as
it sounds much more like Spinoza's version of modal
monism, or even something like Leibniz' monadology.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We could, of course, be approaching this from the wrong
side, starting with matter, when we should be starting
with spirit. A pure and eternal unchanging essence
(eidolon, spirit, universal soul) is a common
top-of-the-ontological-pyramid feature of a lot of the
mythic/philosophical systems Wolfe pirated for BOTNS, as
well as a defining feature of the ontologies of the early
church fathers.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>That pure Spirit substance is then filtered or
refracted or corrupted as it leaves the Ain Soph Dei or
whatever and gets down the lowly earth-world of imperfect,
temporary and flawed beings such as us, where it is now
instantiated not as eternal and unchanging spirit but now
base matter.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The sense of redemption or of reconciliation of matter
with spirit is then a heroic process that runs counter to
the natural inclinations of things.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>LH<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM,
Craig Brewer <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com">cnbrewer@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,
204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"
class="gmail_quote">Just a note that there are quite a
variety of "materialisms" out there. Perhaps<br>
one that would be interesting to think of in relation to
Wolfe would be Milton.<br>
<br>
Milton was a materialist. But he was also, obviously,
not an atheist. For<br>
Milton, matter and spirit were on the same continuum,
and spirit was just<br>
"refined" matter. Technically, Milton gets categorized
as a "monist" meaning<br>
there's only one substance, rather than a dualist who
says that mind/soul and<br>
body are two different "things."<br>
<br>
In his theological writings, Milton says this right out,
but you can also get a<br>
much more beautiful version in Paradise Lost (5.
469-490) when Rafael explains<br>
it to Adam. I'll quote it below, but I'd point out that
this kind of<br>
"materialism" might be interesting to think about,
particularly in relation to<br>
the notion that, with Wolfe, mimicking something can
help you become that thing.<br>
Perhaps, like Milton, Wolfe is saying something along
the lines of: "lowly<br>
matter gets refined into a more spiritual state when it
behaves like something<br>
more pure/moral/spiritual/whatever."<br>
<br>
Rafael to Adam:<br>
<br>
<br>
O Adam, one Almighty is, from whom<br>
All things proceed, and up to him return,<br>
If not deprav’d from good, created all<br>
Such to perfection, one first matter all,<br>
Indu’d with various forms, various degrees<br>
Of substance, and in things that live, of life;<br>
But more refin’d, more spirituous, and pure,<br>
As nearer to him plac’t or nearer tending<br>
Each in thir several active Spheres assign’d,<br>
Till body up to spirit work, in bounds<br>
Proportion’d to each kind. So from the root<br>
Springs lighter the green stalk, from thence the leaves<br>
More aery, last the bright consummate flow’r<br>
Spirits odorous breathes: flow’rs and thir fruit<br>
Man’s nourishment, by gradual scale sublim’d<br>
To vital spirits aspire, to animal,<br>
To intellectual, give both life and sense,<br>
Fancy and understanding, whence the Soul<br>
Reason receives, and reason is her being,<br>
Discursive, or Intuitive; discourse<br>
Is oftest yours, the latter most is ours,<br>
Differing but in degree, of kind the same.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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