<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>You have some fun and intriguing observations here. I would have liked to have seen Inire as a part of all of this. He seems far too omnipresent and obtuse to be ignored.</div><div><br></div><div>Also, Severians rumination near the end of Citadel involving time travel and how he was Apu Punchau and the Conciliator just blows the whole lid off on the lineage permutations and how exponential Severians influence and outreach can actually be.</div><div><br></div><div>With Inire in the mix as a master of the mirrors, things can get complex very quickly.<br><br>...ryan</div><div><br>On Jan 26, 2011, at 12:27 AM, Mr Thalassocrat <<a href="mailto:thalassocrat08@gmail.com">thalassocrat08@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">I think it’s possible that Wolfe scattered red herrings around as fake clues to Severian’s family tree, with the intention of driving overly-attentive readers insane. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">But it’s a question you keep getting drawn to at odd moments, and I’ve finally hit on a solution which makes sense to me. I doubt that anybody will agree with me, or even read all of this long post, but I’ve written it up partly as an attempt to stop my brain from thinking about it any more </font><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings"><span style="mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings">J</span></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Anyway ...</font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">I posit that Sev has Magic Genes which somehow or other can draw or resonate with or whatever the New Sun.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Other characters who seem to have a sun connection are Fechin (cf Casdoe’s father’s story), Agia/Agilus (cf Sev’s sudden lust for her at first sight, with the sun highlighting her skin; and both of them halo’d by the sun in the cell), Dorcas herself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>We know Dorcas is Sev’s grandmother; I want these others to be related to him as well. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">(I also think that Sev’s attraction to Agia and Dorcas is driven largely by Magic Gene calling to Magic Gene. Also, Agia and Agilus’ incest. As Sev himself says, it is hard to explain why he was attracted to Agia, and it may be relevant to note that this lust seems to have waned after the sun went down – cf the events at the tree inn and after. Overall, I don’t see a predisposition to incest as such as part of the family make-up, but rather an attraction driven by the Magic Genes, which will of course have the same result.)</font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">I posit that Dorcas is Fechin’s daughter, by the quiet girl Fechin dallies with in Casdoe’s father’s story.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>As hints to this: both women are quiet and beautiful; Dorcas is a surprisingly good scenery painter. Also: Dorcas’ father and his brother made cloisonné work – enamel work, often on copper. Casdoe’s father’s story has Fechin stealing a copper pan.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>There is no reason to suppose that Fechin’s artistic work was limited to painting; eg Sev imagines Fechin moulding figures in wax. Cloisonne work may well have been a commercially sensible pursuit. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">I discount Fechin’s hairy red monkey arms as evidence against this; others will disagree. I think it more significant that old men who knew Fechin in his day seem compelled to spout off about Fechin when they meet Sev. Perhaps this is triggered by a facial resemblance. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Where do Agia/Agilus fit? My Magic Genes hypothesis calls for them to be descendants of Fechin as well. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>They come from the same small business kind of world as Dorcas and her father and brother, inheriting a clothing store from their mother, so things seems seem to fit together fairly plausibly. Dorcas’<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>background seems to be quite religious, from some of the things she says, her song, her general demeanor and also from her memory of sitting in a shop window with objects including a “rood”. I have a strong sense of Agia being well-versed in religious matters, even if she rejects them: she knows stories of the Conciliator, she knows a building as the “Mensal of the Monachs”, she knows about the Pelerines. If Fechin is the “patriarch” of the Magic New Sun Gene line, it is thematically fitting for him to be religious and for this sensibility to be passed down to his children, and for his grand-children to have been exposed to it in turn. I note also that Agia/Agilus seem to have a good “eye” for things, which I think also fits with this background.</font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">I put all this together to hypothesize that Agia and Agilus are the grandchildren of Dorcas’ brother, Fechin’s son. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>So Sev and Agia/Agilus share a great-grandfather in Fechin. The clash between them and the struggle between Agia and Sev for the Claw take on a new dimension; perhaps we can see these events as part of an unconscious struggle between them for who takes on the mantle as the culmination of the Magic Gene line, to become avatar of the New Sun. Jonas says that averns are used in ritual combat on some other planet; perhaps the Sev vs Agilus death match has some of that character. Of course in this collapse of the wave function, Sev is post-assured of victory, but you can see the struggle as the shadow of a conflict played out across the quantum foam of possibilities, or something like that. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">I also want to tie in Casdoe’s family. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">First: Little Sev asks Sev whether he is his uncle. I can’t see a way for that to be the case – even if Sev were his uncle, how would Little Sev know of his existence? - but I feel reasonably confident that Little Sev would not ask the question unless he knows he does actually have an “Uncle Sev”.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>With so many Sev’s around, either they just *have* to be related or Wolfe is playing dirty red herring tricks. Assuming the former, I go with the supposition that both Sev and Little Sev have a relative also called Severian. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Second: The twin thing. We have Little Sev/Little Severa, Agia/Agilus, presumably Sev/some Severa (quite likely dead in childbirth).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I don’t want to get into the real-world *facts* about genetic issues in twin birth, or detailed ruminations about whether these are all identical or non-identical twins. As far the story goes, I do want these twin-ships to indicate a shared genetic line. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Third: Look at Casdoe’s father.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>He is *really* old, and it would appear a close contemporary of Fechin. On the other hand, his daughter Casdoe appears to be the age you’d expect of the mother of a six/seven year old kid. Casdoe was born in Thrax, she says, but everything points to her father having grown up in Nessus. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">A big leap in my Sev family tree construction is putting all of this together to conclude that Casdoe’s father sired a family in Nessus, before moving to Thrax, including twins named Severian and Severa. This <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Severian is in fact the Old Boatman: Dorcas’ husband, Sev’s grandfather and Little Sev’s half-uncle.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>And this Severa married Dorcas’ brother, grandfather to Agia/Agilus. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></font></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">So Casdoe’s father’s earlier son and daughter married Fechin’s daughter and son, spreading the twin-disposition genes to Fechin’s line. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Of course the main argument against this view is the lack of direct support in the text, and possibly the bigger objection that even if it were true – so what?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></font></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">I can’t do anything much about the first beyond pleading at least consistency. First, the ages work out OK. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I assume that the Old Boatman is in his 60’s when we meet him (a little older than Dorcas would have been had she lived). <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>As a contemporary of Fechin’s, Casdoe’s father is presumably in his 80’s. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Second, obviously Casdoe’s father was well acquainted and there is no reason to suppose their respective children did not also know each other well. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It provides an answer to the question of why we never learn the names of CF and OB (ie, because Wolfe used this lack as a “dig here” clue.) Finally, if you think that Little Sev and Sev *must* be related somehow or other, and that the existence of twins *must* indicate a family relationship, then I don’t see a better way of making it work.</font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">On the “So what?” question, I can only answer that Wolfe probably (hopefully?) didn’t intend the relationship to be vital to understanding the story, otherwise he wouldn’t have made it so difficult to figure out. But fwiw I do think it provides a nice picture: a family dwindling into the gutter or into the forest, unneeded by-blows on the path to constructing Sev.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></font></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">An interesting question is what CF’s gene line contributed to the making of Sev.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Disposition to twin-birth doesn’t seem to get you anywhere, on my picture – the twins we know of look pretty accidental, and from the point of view of the story, I think they are mainly marker-clues for puzzling out the family tree. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>There doesn’t seem to be any evidence for remarkable memory, Sev’s other extraordinary characteristic apart from the New Sun stuff, in CF’s close family. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Dunno. But assuming that there was in fact something in the gene line of importance, it is kind of consistent with my picture of CF’s son and daughter marring Fechin’s daughter and son, leading to Agia/Agilus on the one hand and Sev on the other, with the shadow of some cosmic struggle played between them. Two rolls of the dice, if you like, with Sev the winner.</font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">The missing piece in this is of course Catherine. Where does she come from? I expect just about everybody else would hate my answer: she’s the second child of Dorcas and the Old Boatman, in giving birth to whom Dorcas died. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">We know that Dorcas died in pregnancy, after previously giving birth to Ouen. We hear absolutely nothing about the child; Ouen clearly has no idea whether or not it lived. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">On my story, it was a girl, and it did live, probably taken in by the in-laws, Agia/Agilus’ grand parents, shortly after birth – the Old Boatman not being in a position to care for it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Around this time, perhaps Fechin died or became incapable of work; the OB starts his downward slide and loses touch with his dead wife’s family. Catherine’s foster parents find her a place in the Pelerines – in line with comments above positing a religious streak in the family, and noting comments from Ava, to the effect that the daughters of optimates with a long standing relationship to the order are sometimes admitted as postulants. </font></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Perhaps Catherine’s situation was different from this girl’s – maybe she ended up as slave of the Pelerines, like Winnoc, as her foster parent’s family embarked on their own downward slide (culminating eventually with beggarly Agia/Agilus).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It’s always been hard to connect Ouen’s comments about Catherine having run away from an order of monials, with her ending up in the clutches of the torturers. Surely renunciation by a postulate wouldn’t be punished like this? But if she was a runaway slave, the situation could be different – noting Winnoc’s comments about how the Pelerines deal with disobedient servants. Or perhaps she isn’t with the torturers for running away, but for some crime committed afterwards.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Dunno.</font></p>
<div style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Anyway, after running away, she meets Ouen. Unaware that they are sister and brother, Magic Gene calls to Magic Gene, and Sev results, the unwittingly incestuous union perhaps concentrating the lineage enough to achieve the goal of producing the avatar of the New Sun. </font></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
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