<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">My problem with Severian as the Epitome of Man is the Trial itself, where Zak/ a part of Tzadkiel stands in for him pretty much carrying a cross. Sev doesn't really seem to go on trial AT yesod, it seems like just a formality. I need to refresh my memory of why it seems to be Tzadkiel instead of Severian who actually represents humanity.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/30/10, Jordon Flato <I><jordonflatourth@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth@gmail.com><BR>Subject: Re: (urth) interview questions<BR>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth@lists.urth.net><BR>Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 11:35 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1026999610>Thanks Lee.
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<DIV>I don't think I implied, or certainly didn't mean to, that they needed a Human's (severian's) permission to flood earth. Not at all. They need to find a Man who represents the epitome of Urth, the qualities of Man which have been largely destroyed by the atrophied commonwealth and yes the influence of monsters. In my view of this all, again, there is this chain of being. The Hierogrammates were raised onto the step vacated by Man, and if the Hierogrammates are to climb the chain of being themselves, they must put someone on their rung...in this case...Man! They can't do this until Man has reached a certain state, as represented by the Epitome of Urth, Severian. I think the testing of Severian is moral and metaphysical in nature, not genetic or part of some diabolical horizontal schema. It is a vertical movement, that upward spiral you picture (and I picture too, by the way). Severian passes the
test.</DIV>
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<DIV>We don't know what his role will be on Ushas. Already in his conversation with one of the Ushians on the beach, we can see Severian bringing one god into the picture (gotta go get my copy at some point to talk intelligently about that though).</DIV>
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<DIV>And as for things working out well for the Megatherians after the flood...it seemed to me that the battle was always for humanity, not territory. They may have survived (or maybe not), but their hopes of enslaving humanity have been if not destroyed, at least set back several thousands of years. And in the mean time, there is a fresh humanity ready to be born and grow up to the Green Man's future.</DIV>
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<DIV>I certainly don't claim to have it all worked out, but I can see a purpose in seeing Sev as the epitome of Human Kind, and the next link in the chain of the Hierogrammates plan to place Man on the next run of the ladder of being, but I can't at all see the purpose of a diabolical scheme. I've seen lots of arguments for evidence that the Hierogrammates have a more diabolical scheme at heart, but never can I recall hearing what that plan was. Just to have fun wiping humans off the urth? Why would they need Sev for that? What are the counter theories to Sev being a Man who has Passed The Test?</DIV>
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<DIV>What is your current thinking on the flood, and why it was sev?<BR><BR>
<DIV class=yiv1026999610gmail_quote>On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Lee Berman <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="http://us.mc582.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=severiansola@hotmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com">severiansola@hotmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=yiv1026999610gmail_quote><BR>Jordon, (and Witz) excellent post! You cut quite to the heart of things, imho.<BR>Please keep in mind (and I admit this often) I am playing a role here. A counter-<BR>balance role that I find necessary. From what I could see, the sting (and fear) of<BR>criticism was turning this List from a lively interchange of ideas to a moribund place<BR>destined to become a frickn' cemetery.<BR><BR>If the stultifying "skeptics" contributions had instead been a string of theories<BR>based on gorgonzola cheese and oil derricks over the past 6 years I assure you I'd be<BR>the one jumping in as text police trying to keep the ideas closer to the book and the<BR>author's intentions. (in fact I do fill that role on some other message boards).<BR><BR>I truly do appreciate all efforts to keep me from trying to wedge pieces too forcefully<BR>where
they don't smoothly fit. Still my current philosophy is that if a picture is to be<BR>tossed out, a better picture should be submitted in its place. Much as we'd like to pretend we<BR>are all inhumanly objective academicians, I find us all too human. The license to toss other<BR>people's ideas to the trash heap without replacement is just too easy a stimulation of<BR>some of our baser animal instincts, like territoriality and dominance. (I've mentioned<BR>how politely my ideas were treated during a time period the List thought I was female).<BR><BR>Okay, so...<BR><BR>>Jordan Flato: If the Hierogrammates wanted a hybrid to be the epitome of earth, they could have<BR>>chosen Baldanders, who is certainly a monstrous hybrid of his own creation.<BR><BR>There is the implication that Baldanders WAS a candidate. Why else the attention that B, F and O<BR>pay him? He throws The Claw in part due to jealousy that Severian is the "victor" and honored by<BR>the
hierodules. WHY would he be a candidate though? My view is that he is a man who simply<BR>appeared on the shore of a lake one day. No history, no known parentage, much like Severian and his<BR>appearance with the Torturers. I don't think just anyone can go from human to Monster on Urth.<BR>ONly special people with special ancestry. Like Scylla. And Baldanders. And Severian? (he'd<BR>need a new name).<BR><BR>>Severian matters because he IS a man, the epitome of man. Unlike many, I think Severian's journey<BR>>and transformation shows him to be a man increasingly good, increasingly willing to give up his own<BR>>petty will to thegreater will of the increate. He is also a man who carries other men and women around<BR>>inside of himself. Monsters have tried to get in on the game, and steer him one way or the other, but<BR>>this MAN stays the straight path to the end.<BR><BR>This is good food for thought. It makes conceptual
sense in a "big picture" sort of way. But, against it<BR>I have found much evidence that there is alien Inire in Severian's ancestry. I wonder about exultants also<BR>(like Thecla within him) and how human they are. They were the most recent humans to arrive on Urth. They<BR>(like Jolenta, witch-sister?) are willing to submit themselves to de-humanizing processes like beautification,<BR>cloning for blood-sharing and beauty and, of course, eating dead people.<BR><BR>So, I'm thinking...<BR><BR>So, the Hierogrammates wanted permission from a true human to Flood the planet Urth and extinguish an entire race<BR>of people (who would mostly have been saved to other planets in the Ragnarok future according to Ash). Why?<BR>And why would a true human agree to this? If humanity was corrupted as I argue, by your logic, they would need a<BR>corrupted human to speak for it. (the half-breed Conciliator really is a recurring theme in human legend)<BR><BR>Why do
Hierogrammates want to Flood Urth? In part, to assure their own creation. What does a Flood have to do with<BR>that? Allowing humans to evolve into Hieros? Considering the aquatic nature/origin of Abaia, undines, and the<BR>hierodules...well...I dunno it is just suspicious. The Hieros treated the ancestors of Hierogrammates cruelly to<BR>create them.Yet from this cruelty comes the ultimate in angelic goodness and justice? I just don't know..<BR><BR>Well, as I dwell on it, I really appreciate the food for thought. Talking with other people (in pleasant fashion)<BR>is really what gets my mind working the best. Thanks!<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Urth Mailing List<BR>To post, write <A href="http://us.mc582.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=urth@urth.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</A><BR>Subscription/information: <A href="http://www.urth.net/" rel=nofollow
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