<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>All right Gerry. But it you have to admit it outright SAYS in the text she is. And it says Pas "wants an heir" that is worthy, that's the whole underlying struggle in mainframe. The Whorl is ready for Silk because Pas has set it up that way for his heir.</DIV>
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<DIV>I didn't just fabricate that association between Kypris and Mamelta and Mother, you know. We know Kypris possesses Hyacinth because she reminds her of herself. And Mamelta has the same hair as Hy, is one of the only females with blue eyes which are rare in Viron, and Kypris has them too. If this isn't enough inference for you, and is just symbolic assocation of all women, then I don't think any close readings will quite convince you. Are you sure Eleanor Bold is Mrs. Porter, and that tree was planted on dead people? Now that I look at Peace, that just seems like a bunch of random facts. Nothing to em.</DIV>
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<DIV>If Wolfe said this any more clearly it wouldn't be a mystery at all, in my opinion. We should leave those dreams alone, I guess.</DIV>
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<DIV>I don't know what else to say, I've provided my evidence, and in addition there is a creepy quality to Silk looking up Mamelta's loins that is slightly redeemed by her being his mother. Why she is on the whorl I really can't say, and this is a valid area for exploration, and in my mind the only argument against her being Kypris, since I believe it is not beyond Typhon's powers to partially or completely affect the minds of the sleepers he places on board.</DIV>
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<DIV>Marc<BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 12/21/10, Gerry Quinn <I><gerryq@indigo.ie></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq@indigo.ie><BR>Subject: Re: (urth) the voice of the outsider is the conjunction ofpas/kypris<BR>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth@lists.urth.net><BR>Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 10:41 AM<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>You mention three points in favour of Mamelta being Kypris, or Silk's biological mother, or both. Possibly a few more can be found too. But none of them seem very definitive:</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The first can easily be interpreted as just sleep imagery, lots of faces and people running together.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>In the second, while it can certainly be argued that Silk's dream and Mamelta's name are tips to the reader, it is inescapable that Silk himself is thinking of his </FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>non-biological mother, and therefore not Mamelta. (Also, he does fall asleep before he meets Mamelta.)</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>In the third, it may be that Kypris is - in Silk's thoughts - representing all women.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>As against these, we must weigh the evidence of what Mamelta actually does and says. Surely these speak very heavily against the notion that Mamelta is Kypris? Kypris was Typhon's favourite courtesan. She speaks in a very characteristic voice, which Mamelta does not share. Kypris herself says that she was scanned and her previous self remained on Urth. Mamelta is a computer technician who was forced on board the Whorl. She dreams of returning home to her mother, brothers and pet parrot. She remembers the Monarch and his family, but those memories do not seem intimate. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Could all this be reconciled with her being Kypris? Only if one assumes that Typhon has for some perverse reason had her memory and personality wiped and replaced by another's, and loaded her on the whorl as a sleeper! Why on Urth would he do such a thing?</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>- Gerry Quinn</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A title=marcaramini@yahoo.com href="http://us.mc582.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=marcaramini@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:marcaramini@yahoo.com">Marc Aramini</A> </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR>Well, Gerry, this depends how much credence you put in dreams and throw away comments in the text. Here are some quotes that outright say Kypris is Mamelta, and I infer that Kypris is just possessing Hyacinth.</DIV>
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<DIV>vision on page 534 of Litany of the Long Sun<BR><BR>"the woman who slept in the glass tube, the tube in<BR>which he himself now slept beside Chenille, who was<BR>Kypris, who was Hyacinth, who was Mamelta, with<BR>Hyacinth's jet-black hair,"<BR><BR>Chenille and Hyacinth were both possessed by Kypris -<BR>and since Mamelta has Hyacinth hair, and Kypris had<BR>Hyacinth hair, and they are all related here, I<BR>figured it would be neat if Mamelta were Kypris. Then<BR>I found this bit of niftiness: p 424<BR><BR>"But quite soon now, as the swift floater sailed over<BR>a landscape grown liquid, his mother would come to<BR>kiss him good-night; he liked to be awake for it, to<BR>say distinctly, 'good night to you, too Mama,' when<BR>she left. He resolved not to sleep until she came"<BR><BR>Here, Silk resolves not to sleep until his mommy comes<BR>(here, it is Mama). Well, who does he meet in the next<BR>chapter? Mamelta! And later, what do we get
in<BR>Epiphany of the Long Sun (Calde,actually) on page 220:<BR>"The Outsider was the dancing man on a toy, and the<BR>water the polished toy-top on which he danced with<BR>Kypris, who was Hyacinth and Mother, too."<BR><BR>Kypris is Mother! and she is probably Mamelta, too. <BR>Now I understand why the Mamelta scene is so familiar<BR>- it is like the Dorcas scene in Shadow of the<BR>Torturer - except instead of Grandma, we get Silk's<BR>mom! In the scene where he leaves his body, I am<BR>certain that the tall man with blue eyes is Pas, and <BR>the mother (not the one who raised him) was Mamelta.<BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 12/21/10, Gerry Quinn <I><gerryq@indigo.ie></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR>From: Gerry Quinn <A href="http://us.mc582.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gerryq@indigo.ie" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:gerryq@indigo.ie">gerryq@indigo.ie</A><BR>
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<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I don't think Mamelta fits the part of Kypris well. She seems to remember an ordinary life on Urth. She doesn't speak like Kypris. She gives no evidence of special concern with her appearance. She is trained as a computer technician.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Without any obvious evidence to vthe contrary, I assume she was just an ordinary Sleeper, one of an indeterminate but large number which may run into millions.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>During her beief appearance does she give any clues to suggest she is someone special? She was awakened by Mucor, certainly, but she was not the first to be so awakened.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>- Gerry Quinn</FONT></DIV>
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