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<pre wrap="">James Wynn: So, the fundamental problem with this theory, as I see it, is that it
casually flicks to the gutter the most fundamental attributes of the
Outsider. By this theory, Silk's Outsider is NOT a god outside of the
Whorl. Instead he is ACTUALLY and existentially _only_ an INSIDER.
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<pre wrap="">
Lee Berman-
James you are often a step or two ahead of me in reasoning, so it can be hard to
keep up. I don't see this conclusion within Marc's theory. How is the Outsider
restricted to being inside the Whorl?</pre>
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The Pas and Kypris are restricted to being inside the Whorl. If they
are The Outsider that Silk encounters, then there is nothing
Outsiderish about Him.<br>
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<div>Marc Aramini -<br>
Haven't posted in a long long time because of all the
huge resistance to almost every aspect of my
interpretation of Short Sun, but I will attempt to
respond to James' statement that the Outsider should be
outside. </div>
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Well, I hope this doesn't make you go away again. To the contrary, I
just want to ensure you ideas are taken seriously and met with more
than a shrug.<br>
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<div>Marc Aramini -<br>
Well, Typhon is essentially impersonating the Outsider
with his message to Silk. There is still an Outsider,
but his factual presence in the text can be explained by
Typhon just setting Silk up to think he has been truly
enlightened, when really its all just the Plan of
Pas/Typhon. Once again, the Hubris of Typhon in trying
to establish himself as an Outsider when in fact he
simply serves that same divine will. So the Outsider is
just a myth put in the text by Typhon.</div>
<div> HOWEVER what's awesome about Wolfe is that the real
true Outsider can be working through Typhon's
megalomaniacal impersonation ... but Wolfe doesn't cheat
by making a revelation actual evidence for the existence
of God, he gives a true secular explanation hidden under
a divine one that originally seems better than the lame
secular one Crane gives, blood vessel exploding in the
brain stuff. The irony is that the weakest proposition
to explain the enlightenment might be the "truest"
physical explanation.<br>
</div>
<div>James, I am a weird Catholic and I have no problem
with the enlightenment of Silk being both fully Typhon
and fully Yahweh, just as I have no problem with
evolution being fully natural and fully part of a divine
ordering of a free universe. So I don't think we
disagree. The Outsider is outside the whorl, but his
voice is that of Typhon and Kypris, Satan transfigured
by love.</div>
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Marc, <br>
I get what you are saying philosophically, but this interpretation
really strikes me as destructive to the themes, narratives, and
characterizations of Wolfe's world. You rightly say that your theory
does not _exclude_ the possibility that by imitating gods, Pas and
Kypris are acting in the Increate's behalf. But it certainly
_undermines_ the likelihood of the Outsider's _genuine_ existence.
What you are describing sounds more like something Pullman would
write rather than Wolfe.<br>
(I realize this is "aesthetic blowback", which can be unfair, but
it's not the only card I intend to play, and it is necessary to
address that portion of your justification for your theory.) <br>
<br>
As I move on, let me reiterate. You are saying that the being who
enlightens Silk and communicates with him is not /fundamentally/ a
god who is outside the Whorl but /actually/ the demiurge again, Pas,
and his consort.<br>
<br>
This is a problem on so many levels it's bewildering. The "Outsider"
tells Silk that Kypris, the god of Love, has become associated with
Him and that if she were erased, in a few centuries, Thelxiepeia
would assume that role. It would take paragraphs to explain why it
is impossible that these words would come from Typhon/Pas. Yeah,
he's imitating a god and so "in a sense" becomes one. But he doesn't
BECOME the Outsider. Quetzal imitates a holy man, but he still
attempts to guide his flock to the Hell on Green. Spider's spies
have fight bravely for General Mint but they are still working on
Potto's behalf. If you place the words from the Outsider to Silk at
Thelx's pool into Pas' mouth (or even Kypris'), then entire scene
and dialog becomes incomprehensible. It makes Pas a Chestertonian
Christian having fully abandoned (as far as is detectable from the
reader) his own ego or agenda, but still carrying on a charade. It
supposes Pas has knowlege and understanding that --if he believed
it-- would cease to make him Pas at all.<br>
<br>
Additionally, the demiurge-as-Increate is absolutely destructive to
the Gnostic framework that Wolfe has created in the Whorl...a
framework you yourself acknowledge.<br>
<br>
I don't consider it "cheating" to have the Outsider enlighten Silk.
And having considered a couple other rationalized options as well as
this one, I don't think it could be any other way.<br>
<br>
u+16b9<br>
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