<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><br></div><div><br>On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:17 PM, Craig Brewer <<a href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com">cnbrewer@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">Strangely enough, I think that's actually a point of debate in the history of theology: namely, does the universe only need one redeemer? Does every planet need its own Christ? Would every iteration of a cyclical universe need its own Christ to be saved? Or was one enough to get the job done, as it were? Seems like I remember reading once that this argument has popped up a number of times in places FAR removed from science fiction. (I'm no theology expert, so I couldn't tell you where I read this.)<br><br>As for separating Christ from Jesus, though...for a Christian, that's splitting hairs, isn't it? Christ/"annointed one"/the "Messiah" isn't an abstraction. It had an actual, personal, historical occurrence in Jesus of Nazareth and that SPECIFIC instantiation matters. I mean, if Christ is the
Word/Logos made flesh, then the flesh of Jesus isn't an accidental property. The whole point was that god became a specific, historical man, not just a man in general.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm not suggesting that this force that sometimes incarnates intemporal reality is an abstraction. It is a real force. And if humanity can lose it's way again and again, it needs a saviour again and again. </div><div><br></div><div>Man, I'm no theology expert either, nor do I believe in Jesus of Nazareth, though when my son asks me if I believe in Jesus the simplest answer seems to be "Yes". I believe that God sends an aspect of itself into temporal reality to heal us and show us the way. If you think the Nazzarene was the an example of this, well fine. I think there are or can be more than one instance of this help.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">Again, I'm no theologian, so I've probably got all kinds of things wrong...and in the end, like I said about the Outsider, I'm not sure how much any of this really matters to Long Sun.<br><div><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Son of Witz <<a href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, December 15,
2010 6:06:37 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: (urth) christ, already<br></font><br>
<div>I pretty much agree with you but I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall.</div><div>Jesus of Nazareth delivered the sermon on the mount and died on the cross. Christians essentially title Jesus of Nazareth with the title Christ to denote that he is the Messiah.</div><div>Christ means Messiah (redeemer) ("Annointed one" comes after Messiah")</div><div>Every time I use Christ no one can ever seem to separate it from Jesus.</div><div>I have not EVER said the Outsider or Severianhas any connection with the man Jesus of Nazareth or his sermons or sacrifice.</div><div><br></div><div>SURELY, if the universe repeats itself, each universe will need a Christ / Messiah / Redeemer / Conciliator to help it from Outside creation, if it can be said that any of the creations have this.</div><div><br></div><div>~witz</div><div><br>On Dec 15, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Craig Brewer <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com">cnbrewer@yahoo.com</a></a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">I get the point about the Outsider being "God" but not "Christ" in the sense that the Outsider didn't deliver the sermon on the mount or actually be the body that died on the cross, etc.<br><br>But isn't there a bigger point here that the Outsider is the Outsider. "It" is the "real" God outside of man-made mythology. We can assume that it's ultimately the God of Christianity because of what we know of Wolfe, and, textually, because of its close association with Kypris/love/etc. and because of what *we* know those thematic relationships suggest to non-fictional theology outside of the made-up world in the books.<br><br>But, in the book, I always assumed that the real point of having the Outsider be called very deliberately "the Outsider" was that its actual
nature remains largely unknown and
mysterious, even to Silk after his vision. The books stress how difficult gnosis can be to come to terms with, even after direct revelation. Silk continually misunderstands the nature of the Outsider throughout the books, still trying to understand it through the "dark glass" of Pas' cobbled-together mythology at times, even as he learns how false that mythology actually is. At no point is Silk given a Bible in which he can read the gospels, etc. in any way that makes the identification of the Outsider as God/Holy Spirit/Christ really meaningful within the world of the book.<br><br>In Long Sun, the Outsider is the real God, sure, but none of the characters ever really understands what that means in the same way that Wolfe might believe he understands it. That truth remains difficult and distant even after revelation seems to be much the point of the books.<br><br>So I'll stick with calling it the Outsider.<br><div><br></div><div style="font-family:
times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Ryan Dunn <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ryan@liftingfaces.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:ryan@liftingfaces.com"><a href="mailto:ryan@liftingfaces.com">ryan@liftingfaces.com</a></a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The Urth Mailing List <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a></a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, December 15, 2010 5:38:34 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: (urth) christ, already<br></font><br>
<div>In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Christ and God are explicit, though part of the Holy Trinity. God is within Christ, and Christ symbolizes God. And God created the symbol.</div><div><br></div><div>Something about symbols inventing us echoes in my mind.</div><div><br></div><div>:)</div><div><br>...ryan</div><div><br>On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:48 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net"><a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a></a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font: inherit;" valign="top">Hey, you're the one who said Outsider=Christ.<div><br></div><div>And no, Christians do not "use Christ interchangeably with God." Even I know
that.<br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <i><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"><a href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a></a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Son of Witz <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"><a href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a></a>><br>Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already<br>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a></a>><br>Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:35 PM<br><br><div id="yiv246652495"><div>Are you forgetting the tripartite nature of Christ?</div><div>The Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost. Christ is an aspect of God and is used by Christians interchangeably with God.</div><div><br>On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net"><a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a></a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite">I'd say <span class="yiv246652495Apple-style-span" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 14px; line-height: 16px;">Outsider=God was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe
gets.</span><br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <i><<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"><a href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a></a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Son of Witz <<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"><a href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a></a>><br>Subject: Re:
(urth) christ, already<br>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a></a>><br>Date: <a rel="nofollow">Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:12 PM</a><br><span class="yiv246652495Apple-style-span" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 14px; line-height: 16px;">I don't know about Dionysus. I need to read those again, but I thought that Outsider=Christ was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.</span></blockquote></blockquote><div></div></div><br>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br><br><div class="plainMail">_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a></a><br>Subscription/information: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.urth.net"><a href="http://www.urth.net">http://www.urth.net</a></a><br></div></blockquote></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Urth Mailing List</span><br><span>To post, write <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a></a></span><br><span>Subscription/information: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.urth.net"><a href="http://www.urth.net">http://www.urth.net</a></a></span></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div><br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Urth Mailing List</span><br><span>To post, write <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a></a></span><br><span>Subscription/information: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.urth.net"></a><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.urth.net"><a href="http://www.urth.net">http://www.urth.net</a></a></span></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div><br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Urth Mailing List</span><br><span>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a></a></span><br><span>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net"><a href="http://www.urth.net">http://www.urth.net</a></a></span></div></blockquote></body></html>