<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">I get the point about the Outsider being "God" but not "Christ" in the sense that the Outsider didn't deliver the sermon on the mount or actually be the body that died on the cross, etc.<br><br>But isn't there a bigger point here that the Outsider is the Outsider. "It" is the "real" God outside of man-made mythology. We can assume that it's ultimately the God of Christianity because of what we know of Wolfe, and, textually, because of its close association with Kypris/love/etc. and because of what *we* know those thematic relationships suggest to non-fictional theology outside of the made-up world in the books.<br><br>But, in the book, I always assumed that the real point of having the Outsider be called very deliberately "the Outsider" was that its actual nature remains largely unknown and
mysterious, even to Silk after his vision. The books stress how difficult gnosis can be to come to terms with, even after direct revelation. Silk continually misunderstands the nature of the Outsider throughout the books, still trying to understand it through the "dark glass" of Pas' cobbled-together mythology at times, even as he learns how false that mythology actually is. At no point is Silk given a Bible in which he can read the gospels, etc. in any way that makes the identification of the Outsider as God/Holy Spirit/Christ really meaningful within the world of the book.<br><br>In Long Sun, the Outsider is the real God, sure, but none of the characters ever really understands what that means in the same way that Wolfe might believe he understands it. That truth remains difficult and distant even after revelation seems to be much the point of the books.<br><br>So I'll stick with calling it the Outsider.<br><div><br></div><div style="font-family:
times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Ryan Dunn <ryan@liftingfaces.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The Urth Mailing List <urth@lists.urth.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, December 15, 2010 5:38:34 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: (urth) christ, already<br></font><br>
<div>In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Christ and God are explicit, though part of the Holy Trinity. God is within Christ, and Christ symbolizes God. And God created the symbol.</div><div><br></div><div>Something about symbols inventing us echoes in my mind.</div><div><br></div><div>:)</div><div><br>...ryan</div><div><br>On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:48 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font: inherit;" valign="top">Hey, you're the one who said Outsider=Christ.<div><br></div><div>And no, Christians do not "use Christ interchangeably with God." Even I know that.<br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <i><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org"
target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Son of Witz <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already<br>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:35 PM<br><br><div id="yiv246652495"><div>Are you forgetting the tripartite nature of Christ?</div><div>The Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost. Christ is an aspect of God and is used by Christians interchangeably with God.</div><div><br>On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite">I'd say <span class="yiv246652495Apple-style-span" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 14px; line-height: 16px;">Outsider=God was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.</span><br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <i><<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Son of Witz <<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">Sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>><br>Subject: Re:
(urth) christ, already<br>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <<a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>Date: <a rel="nofollow">Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:12 PM</a><br><span class="yiv246652495Apple-style-span" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 14px; line-height: 16px;">I don't know about Dionysus. I need to read those again, but I thought that Outsider=Christ was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.</span></blockquote></blockquote><div></div></div><br>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br><br><div class="plainMail">_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a rel="nofollow"></a><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br>Subscription/information: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
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