<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lee Berman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com">severiansola@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote"> </blockquote>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">I guess I am reaching beyond your interpretation of the text but I don't<br>see anything wrong with that. Why should there be an end to expansion of current<br>
modes of thought when I, and others, find them incomplete and unsatisfactory?<br><br>I think your 4-D thinking is off in interpreting the "History" of the Universe.<br>Yes, the Hierogrammates escaped to Yesod and all that the Hieros created was<br>
destroyed in the death of the previous universe. But the universe lower than<br>Yesod is Briah. Thus "history" of the destruction of Briah is actually far in<br>Urth/Ushas's future. Any failed Hierogrammates would be trapped in Briah which<br>
is what I think we could be seeing in Inire and the Cumaean.<br><br></blockquote>
<div>I think you have this wrong. Very wrong, in fact. Briah is not the lower universe that the Hierogrammates escaped from. It is a lower universe being farmed by the Hierogrammates following the death of their original universe. Apheta is very clear that the Hierogrammates were created by a race "cognate" to Severian's and confirms his impression that this occurred in a previous manvantara.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Ushas is created because it is a necessary stage in the creation of Hierogrammates,<br>yes? </blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>No, it's a necessary step for the creation of Hieros. The Yesod Hierogrammates are trying to recreate the race that created them, but not their literal, temporal percursors (call those the "Yesod Hieros.") They are trying to breed Briah Hieros and then use them in some manner to escape Yesod to a higher universe yet.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If the Briah Hieros then go on to produce Briah Hierogrammates, that's inconsequential to the Yesod Hierogrammates--they will be long gone. It does seem to be Apheta's assumption that the cycle would continue and that Briah Hieros would produce Briah Hierogrammates. But it isn't actually important to the Hierogrammates' goals.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Each race creates the other. Thus Hierogrammates must be created in the<br>future of Ushas (Hieros are green men maybe?). That's how I currently see it.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div>Not "<em>must</em> be." "<em>May</em> be." The Hierogrammates are seeking to effectuate this future, and Severian apparently helps them to do so. But it is not a necessary future, at least on Urth, as Master Ash confirms. </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">I think Borski has proposed that Mother Cumaean and Father Inire are the parents<br>of Barbatus and Famulimus. I prefer your idea that they are older, messed up<br>
versions...in your view, any chance they could, in fact, BE older, bent versions<br>of Barbatus and Famulimus?<br><br></blockquote>
<div>Not directed to me, but there is no reason to make this assumption. I think it is far more likely that the are the same sort of beings extended in life beyond what is natural for their kinds.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">For me, simple aging is not enough explanation. Their personalities and speech<br>patterns and behavior are different also. Such a common SF trope that the good<br>
superior interstellar beings remain above the fray, while the bad ones get<br>personally involved and take sides and set themselves up as minor gods among<br>the primitives. I suppose it could be argued that long residence on Urth has<br>
corrupted their behavior as well as their physical appearance. But is just another<br>way of saying they are fallen versions of the angelic hierodules.<br><br></blockquote>
<div>There is also a trope of the "good" fallen angel--a higher being whose sin, as it were, is caring too much about the lowly humans it is charged with overseeing. Captain Kirk's willy-nilly disregard of Prime Directive comes to mind, as does the Doctor and Uatu the Watcher (oh, and Zauriel...and arguably the Green Lantern...the Silver Surfer...I could go on, although I'm hesistant in ascribing comic book inspiration to Wolfe unless there's a specific connection to look to.)</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote"><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br>
Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net/" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net</a><br></blockquote></div><br>