<div>Thanks. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Obviously, the effect of Tzadkiel's actions is the coming of the New Sun and the drowning of Urth. Lots and lots of people die in this, maybe for a redemptive higher meaning and maybe not. Under 1), we can be quite confident that the slaughter was authorized by God, like the Flood or the apocalypse, and therefore moral, at least by the author's lights (the reader's mileage may vary.) Under 2), the massacring of Urth is no less than genocide. Under 3), it may be either--a clumsy attempt by incredibly powerful but fallible beings to enact what they understand to be the divine will.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think 3) maybe makes for the best story. But with 2), there's the possibility of something else going on behind the scenes--maybe over the course of the next seven books--redeeming the act of evil. That would be a pretty great story.<br>
<br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:53 AM, David Stockhoff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Well argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien.<br><br>Under #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel just as lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly more connected.<br>
<br>One can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good intentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to the deity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more damage.<br>
<br>John Watkins wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div class="im">Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in Christian and Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible separation between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have been possible. It's my understanding that there are various interpretations of what this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant communication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various errors of judgment. I don't think, however, that they ever lie or commit acts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on one occasion).<br>
<br></div>
<div class="im">On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff <<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br> #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting "more or less" and<br> using the words "infallible" and "definitely in direct contact."<br> That would be more distinct.<br><br> As I understand it.<br>
<br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5"> <a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a>> wrote:<br><br> There is no meaningful difference between one and three.<br>
<br> .<br><br><br> <br> Right.<br><br> Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents<br> himself not as<br> the<br> Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important<br>
question of the<br> series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in<br> fact three<br> options:<br><br> 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less<br>
in direct<br> contact<br> with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be<br> completely trusted and<br> is<br> a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.<br>
2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.<br> The<br> pretentions<br> of religion are a means of controlling the human race.<br> 3) Tzadkiel is a "higher" being in some meaningful sense<br>
but remains<br> metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in<br> "The Cock and<br> the<br> Angel." His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do<br>
its will is<br> sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best<br> he/she can, but<br> like<br> the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and<br> infinitely removed<br>
from<br> the mind of the Increate.<br><br> I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.<br><br> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff<br></div></div> <<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>>>wrote:
<div class="im"><br><br> <br> No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a<br> general theoretical<br> observation.<br><br></div> <a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a>>
<div class="im"><br> wrote:<br><br> <br> Who usurping where?<br><br> Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider?<br> Tzadkiel?<br>
<br> I don't think so.<br><br> .<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <br> No, the definition of usurping demands it. So<br> does the concept of a<br>
local archon pretending to be the Outsider.<br> You can explain it any way<br> you want, but that's the concept.<br><br> Think Tolkien.<br>
<br> <a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a><br></div>
<div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a>> wrote:<br><br><br> <br> Maybe for you.<br>
<br> .<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br> The question, then, is whether such<br> delegation occurred---or not.<br>
<br> <a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a><br></div>
<div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a>> wrote:<br><br><br><br> <br> I don't buy it.<br>
<br> God delegates all the time.<br><br> .<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br> Precisely.<br>
<br> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:<br><br><br><br><br> <br> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at<br>
11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson<br> <<a href="mailto:jwilson@io.com" target="_blank">jwilson@io.com</a><br></div> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jwilson@io.com" target="_blank">jwilson@io.com</a>>>
<div class="im"><br> wrote:<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br> Jeff Wilson wrote<br>
(30-06-2010 16:04):<br> <br><br><br><br> <br>
On 6/30/2010<br> 9:24 AM, James<br> Wynn wrote:<br><br><br>
<br><br><br> <br> There's that thing<br>
about only God<br> being creator.<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>
How is that relevant<br> here? Do you prefer<br> that people use<br> "assemble"<br>
instead of "create"?<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br> It's relevant because a<br>
race that creates a<br> (slave) race is<br> usurping<br> the privilege of the<br>
Creator -- is in fact<br> acting in daemonic<br> manner.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>
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