<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">Well, maybe. But now we're quibbling. You're a fan of "fable." I'm a fan of "allegory." But we likely think the words mean similar things.<br><div><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> John Watkins <john.watkins04@gmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The Urth Mailing List <urth@lists.urth.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sun, June 6, 2010 12:19:05 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: (urth) Allegory<br></font><br>
It's a fable. If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death was deemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com">cnbrewer@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">Of course it's an allegory...just a "good" one. Even Tolkien broke his own rules: what is "Leaf by Niggle" if not an allegory?<br>
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<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> John Watkins <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:john.watkins04@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:john.watkins04@gmail.com">john.watkins04@gmail.com</a>>
<div class="im"><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The Urth Mailing List <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br></div><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: (urth) Allegory<br></font>
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<div class="h5"><br>I rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory. He took the time to translate it, after all.<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jack.smith.1946@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jack.smith.1946@gmail.com">jack.smith.1946@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." --Tolkien, Foreword to The Lord of the Rings
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<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div>Jack<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com">cnbrewer@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient languages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval literature. Apparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to "allegory" was specifically targeted against the strain of _Piers Plowman_/_Confessio Amantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties and which he was of course familiar with. (I'm getting this from my memory of _The Inklings_ and other stuff from his letters.)<br>
<br>To the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to mythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its original context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over it. But Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt "message," if that's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even the Bible, all of which he loved for their mythic status, are generally "allegorical" but not allegorical in the same way that _The Romance of the Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is allegorical. They model a way of living, a mindset, an idealized culture, etc., but they aren't allegorical in the reductive way that _Pilgrim's Progress_ has walking personifications and where meanings can be decoded in a this-means-that relationship.<br>
<br>They also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the idea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany "allegory." I think Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be thought of as contributing to thinking about certain situations like that -- after all, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our outlook? But he resisted the idea that his books were allegory if that meant that you say "Sauron is Hitler" and walk away thinking you solved the puzzle.<br>
<br>Relation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as Spenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that uses its symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just reduce an icon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the same way for me.<br>
<br><br><br><br>----- Original Message ----<br>From: Jeff Wilson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jwilson@io.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jwilson@io.com">jwilson@io.com</a>><br>To: The Urth Mailing List <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:14:12 PM<br>Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north<br><br>On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org">brunians@brunians.org</a> wrote:<br>> He'd whine loudly.<br>
<br>In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it. But that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally.<br><br>-- Jeff Wilson - <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jwilson@io.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jwilson@io.com">jwilson@io.com</a><br>
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