For someone who continually tries to intimate that they maintain a civil level of discourse on these matters, you nearly always come off as horribly condescending, brunians, truly. I say this not to be rude, but to point out something that is patently obvious to most on this board, I think. It's something to examine, I think.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:12 PM, John Watkins <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:john.watkins04@gmail.com">john.watkins04@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Is this called for? Son of Witz asked a sincere question.<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:11 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">You'll thank me even more after you read them, and also embarrass yourself<br>less when you choose to discuss these matters.<br>
<br><br><br><br><br>.<br>
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<div><br><br><br>> Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless.<br>><br>><br>><br>>>-----Original Message-----<br>>>From: <a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a>]<br>
>>Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM<br>>>To: 'The Urth Mailing List'<br>>>Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"GeneWolfe's Politics<br>>><br>>>OK, reread it and read the other three.<br>
>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>.<br>>><br>>><br>>>> I read The Prince a LONG time ago...<br>>>><br>>>> ~witz<br>>>><br>>>>>-----Original Message-----<br>
>>>>From: <a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a>]<br>>>>>Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM<br>
>>>>To: 'The Urth Mailing List'<br>>>>>Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"Gene Wolfe's Politics<br>>>>><br>>>>>Witz: go read Plato's "Republic", Aristotle's "Politics" and Niccolo<br>
>>>>Machiavelli's two works "Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus<br>>>>>Livius" and "The Prince".<br>>>>><br>>>>>This will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for<br>
>>>> discussing<br>>>>>this kind of thing.<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>>.<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>>> refresher quote, questions below:<br>
>>>>><br>>>>>> SHADOW XXXII Five Legs:<br>>>>>> """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""<br>
>>>>> "Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance."<br>>>>>> It was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it<br>>>>>> was<br>>>>>> a<br>
>>>>> dream)to say, "I do not recall that we have studied such a thing,<br>>>>>> Master."<br>>>>>> "You were always the most careless of my boys," he told me, and fell<br>
>>>>> silent.<br>>>>>> A foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some<br>>>>>> tragedy<br>>>>>> would<br>>>>>> occur. At last I began weakly, "Anarchy . . ."<br>
>>>>> "That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it<br>>>>>> precedes<br>>>>>> all governance. Now list the seven sorts."<br>>>>>> "Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline<br>
>>>>> or<br>>>>>> other<br>>>>>> sequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to<br>>>>>> a<br>>>>>> code<br>>>>>> legitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only.<br>
>>>>> Attachment<br>>>>>> to a<br>>>>>> greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law.<br>>>>>> Attachment<br>>>>>> to<br>>>>>> an<br>
>>>>> abstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies<br>>>>>> giving<br>>>>>> rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal."<br>>>>>> "Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the<br>
>>>>> highest?"<br>>>>>> "The development is in the order given, Master," I said. "But I do<br>>>>>> not<br>>>>>> recall<br>>>>>> that you ever asked before which was highest?'<br>
>>>>> Master Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the<br>>>>>> coals<br>>>>>> of the<br>>>>>> fire. "Which is highest, Severian?"<br>
>>>>> "The last, Master?"<br>>>>>> "You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the<br>>>>>> body<br>>>>>> of<br>>>>>> electors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other<br>
>>>>> elements,<br>>>>>> largely ideal?"<br>>>>>> "Yes, Master."<br>>>>>> "Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine<br>>>>>> Entity?"<br>
>>>>> I said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my<br>>>>>> mind<br>>>>>> was too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought.<br>>>>>> Instead,<br>
>>>>> I<br>>>>>> became<br>>>>>> profoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face<br>>>>>> in<br>>>>>> all<br>>>>>> its<br>
>>>>> grandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be<br>>>>>> presented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a<br>>>>>> woman,<br>>>>>> and the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as<br>
>>>>> crystal<br>>>>>> and as fluid as wine.<br>>>>>> "Answer me, Severian."<br>>>>>> "The first, if I have any."<br>>>>>> "To the person of the monarch?"<br>
>>>>> "Yes, because there is no succession."<br>>>>>> "The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind<br>>>>>> is<br>>>>>> his<br>
>>>>> attachment to you?"<br>>>>>> "The first?"<br>>>>>> """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""<br>
>>>>><br>>>>>> ok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation?<br>>>>>> Abstraction, largely ideal.<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> maybe some conservatives can help me out here.<br>
>>>>> "Attachment to the person of the monarch"<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> On one hand, I don't understand how "Attachment to" is governance.<br>>>>>> Are<br>
>>>>> the people attached, or is the governance attached?<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> Another question this brings up for me. This notion of a Divine<br>>>>>> Ruler...<br>
>>>>> You get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this<br>>>>>> idea<br>>>>>> of bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but<br>
>>>>> it's<br>>>>>> something that seems to come up in various traditions. Anyway, While<br>>>>>> anyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could<br>
>>>>> be<br>>>>>> proven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate.<br>>>>>> anyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe<br>
>>>>> with<br>>>>>> reality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God?<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> Let me rephrase? This seems like a sort of religious right position<br>
>>>>> (maybe I'm totally wrong) So, would anyone toss away democracy in<br>>>>>> favor<br>>>>>> of a monarch? How can this notion not be "largely ideal" when it<br>
>>>>> hinges<br>>>>>> upon the character of a single person?<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> I'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how<br>
>>>>> this<br>>>>>> can be considered the highest state of governance in a practical,<br>>>>>> non-ideal world.<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> just asking...<br>
>>>>><br>>>>>> ~Witz<br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>>>> Urth Mailing List<br>>>>>> To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank">urth@urth.net</a><br>
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