Hmmmm.<br><br>As to why they would want to stop Severian, I can only think that one of the stated reasons that these massive giants don't just wipe out everyone themselves is that they are more interested in enslaving humanity, not destroying it. Hence, a flood that destroys Humanity pretty much leaves them where they already were...i.e. with a bunch of fun Undines to play with, but not much else. So, I would think they want to capture decaying humanity for their own purposes. The fact that decaying humanity is wiped from the Urth means they having nothing left to do, I suppose. All the best toys would be gone! <br>
<br>And I'm not going to weigh in on the Christ thing again....of fuck it, why not! If it is not meant to have any resonance with the idea of there being some sort of Increate involved here, then Wolfe need never have done things like turn water into wine. The Hiero's didn't do that. It doesn't really make a ton of sense for the 'claw' to do it, but it certainly has some special resonance vis a vis a certain past messiah, right? There are lots of examples like that, which aren't things 'created' by the Undines or the Hierdules, but are things that happen to Sev on his journey. Are these all red herrings by Wolfe to throw us off the course? Could be. That would be a poor interpretation in my book, but then again, it's our book, not my book, isn't it!<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:12 PM, David Stockhoff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the undines. Does anyone "know" or care to guess? IIRC, Baldanders seems to think they evolved for a watery future, which may be true.<br>
<br>
A related question is why they are necessarily or assumed to be evil. I've been moving away from a perverted-Christ interpretation (though that aspect can never be dismissed) since that discussion began (for example, I see no reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules really work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the Increate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of puppies).<br>
<br>
The only straw I have to clutch at is that they are basically water elementals. In the Seven Worlds cosmology, things are just the way they are, as in folklore. So, for example, don't trust the wood fairies, but run from the water fairies, and stay away from giants, etc. Just as fairies have their own plans that don't really involve us (see John Crowley's Little, Big), the Hieros do what they do without much interest in human morality, and the undines even less so.<br>
<br>
Several months ago, there was a discussion about what the New Sun would do to the undines. Clearly they are alive and well on Ushas, whether Abais himself survived or not. But they would have vanished utterly in Master Ash's timeline except for the small ones who could escape (like Idas).<br>
<br>
So why would they oppose Severian at all? Or was it rather the Commonwealth they opposed, perhaps as the heirs of Typhon and the first empire? You'd think thet'd want the New Sun to come and bring the Clean Slate with lots of water on the side.<br>
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