<div>I agree that the Hieros might not care to save the Ascians. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>One argument that's been made here before (can't recall by whom) is that the humans of Urth have interbred with cacogens.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thus, the Hieros eugenics project--wipe the cacogen blood away, perserve a handful of "pure" humans, and start over again.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The parallel to the Biblical Flood is clear--the Flood was motivated, in part, by the interbreeding of women with Nephilim:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Genesis, Chapter Six (KJV, again, for literary effect)</div>
<div>
<p><a class="verse" id="4" name="4">4</a> There were giants [<a class="1" href="http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nephilim.html" target="_blank">nephilim</a>] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, </p>
<p>and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.</p>
<p><a class="verse" id="5" name="5">5</a> And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, </p>
<p>and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.</p>
<p><a class="verse" id="6" name="6">6</a> And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.</p>
<p><a class="verse" id="7" name="7">7</a> And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; </p>
<p>both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.</p></div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 12/5/08, <b class="gmail_sendername">David Stockhoff</b> <<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"><pre>I suppose one could speculate that in Ash's timeline, there was plenty of time to evacuate, because Urth died slowly. Typhon sent millions forth in the Whorl, so the Commonwealth could have done the same with help, i.e., self-evacuation. (Which of course still leaves open the question of who was actually deemed worthy of evacuation among Urth's presumably diverse populations.) And thus, whether the coming of the White Fountain also left time for any similar effort.
The odd thing about these 2 potential futures is that in Ash's timeline, the Hieros don't seem to care at all (or maybe they do rescue everyone), but in Severian's timeline, they save some and destroy the rest. Why would Severian's "proving" that some of humanity was worth saving mean that some of humanity then needed to be destroyed who otherwise would not have been? (To clean out the planet so the worthy could rebuild?)
As for the humanity/worthiness of the Ascians, I agree that it's ambiguous, as perhaps it should be. What matters is what the Heiros think, and we just don't know.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:55:01 -0500
From: "John Watkins" <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:john.watkins04@gmail.com" target="_blank"><john.watkins04@gmail.com></a><span class="q">
Subject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank"><urth@lists.urth.net></a></span>
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On 12/5/08, David Stockhoff <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank"><dstockhoff@verizon.net></a> wrote:
</pre><span class="q">
<blockquote type="cite"><pre><span>></span>
<span>> </span>John---
<span>></span>
<span>> </span>I agree, and I especially like your formulation of "the kind of Messiah humanity deserves." That's why such a Bad Example as Severian can be Epitome. What Urth deserves is the whole point.
<span>></span>
<span>> </span>Question: How do we know evacuation was feasible? I suppose the starsailship could have been used an infinite number of times to evacuate millions at a time via time travel, but I don't recall it being mentioned.
<span>></span>
<span>></span>
</pre></blockquote><pre>I think Master Ash comments that most of humanity was evacuated before the
final freeze.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre><span>> </span>Also, I have always simply assumed, in the absence of any direct evidence, that we are to regard all of humanity outside the Commonwealth as no longer really human---if the Ascians are any indication---and therefore no loss whatsoever, though they had an equal chance of surviving the Flood. But even if the Fountain is just a eugenics program, it's still complicated by a lack of information. Was the purpose to weed out those not worthy, and to decide whether the remainder were worthy?
<span>></span>
<span>></span>
<span>></span>
</pre></blockquote><pre>This is I think the opposite of what Wolfe intends. Yes, the Pelerine says
that the Ascians are animals, and the name "without shadows" is
tantilizingly like "without souls."
But the Story of Loyal to the Group of Seventeen seems to suggest that human
individuality has endured despite the repressive Ascian culture.
I think I remember Severian speculating that Loyal could communicate
anything he wished to.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre><span>> </span>------------------------------</pre></blockquote><br><br></span>
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